Relatively old post(s) --- Yet I'm really grateful you kind folks are willing to provide succinct & accurate detail on "economy satellite" + floor speakers. AND in the configuration-type "place CR65s atop AR58s"
I'm pretty NEW to the hobby.
Still, I'm getting set to BUY a(nother) pair of bookshelf speakers ... NOT (yet?) an "audiophile" or even bonafide hobbyist (ok - recently bought a solder station) but ... who knows?
Two things; I'm assuming
A) ... place CR65s atop AR58s &
B) If you are interested, my posts on this topic have moved to the Mods and Tweaks section of the forum ... are both pretty important??
It CAN'T HURT to in 50 words-or-less 'splain more-or-less what "Brought me here, to this juncture?" [to hobby, to classicspeakerpages]
We'd conveniently found (what I thought) was a totally acceptable pair of JBL HLS820 [2nd-hand] floor-standers. About $80 minus a 10% discount at a big Thrift Store.
I'd HOPED we made out like a bandit on these big, and "fairly acceptable" units, except when we got them home they sounded pretty muddy. Oh well, "We'll Survive." Anyhows, maybe a month later I think I paid $35 for a pair bookshelf SONY SS-B1000 bookshelfs, figuring, maybe:
"place UVWs atop XYZs."
Wow. The 4-way (traditional stereo A+B channel Receiver obviously) now sounded "Pretty darn good." -- A helluva lot better than "$600/list/price JBLs alone!" --
But wait a sec ... switching A-B, the little SONYs sounded FAR cleaner/clearer (B channel) than the JBL (A channel). SOMETHING HADDA BE WRONG. Turns out the tweeters on the JBL obviously (very LIKELY the aforementioned 10mm polycarbonate domes ... were BLOWN); and so I bought new-ones: easy like-for-like R&R aftermarkets $5ea [clearance] + shipping.
Anyhow, At long last, we finally had "fully functioning" [4x] "wall-of-sound" i.e., small living room. Rattle-pictures-off-the-walls type 'o thingy. Pretty cool & CHEAP.
Now its Wow Wee.
[Having "wished for" teeth-rattling-concert-volumes -- HiFi -- this was all "installation at g/f's home" -- and she'd (excitedly!) now finally gotten (practically) more-than-hoped-for?]
Anyhows, I'd "no earthly idea" that electrolytic capacitors degrade, COMMONLY, anyway; vaguely remembered replacing a "cap we'd popped" main-board cheap TV ... but (until a couple months ago) reading [mainly] reviews of speakers realized: "Vintage means XO caps are dry" ... bla bla bla.
SO WE HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO REACH FULL POTENTIAL. G/f "can't really believe that" unless/until I get the new caps in the JBL (and some batting into the little SONYs + a tweeter upgrade?)
The SONYs [actually] have more SOLID cab than JBL. Oh Well. But the "dual woofer" on the JBL provides plenty bass - apparently.
My "BIG STRUGGLE" is de-soldering (just) the 22 and 44uF caps from the JBL X-over. It's a 3rd Butterworth BTW and the other cap is non-electrolytic and remains fine we assume ... I tried using a solder wick (instead of solder-sucker and BOY WAS THAT A MISTAKE.) Those two caps are "glued in tight-confines" and the tiniest slip-of-the-razor knife could sever the lead to an air-core. Whew.
I buggered the main board on one speaker bad enough with the iron -- hadda find a complete replacement (thank Goodness! Ebay $19) board ... I'm [finally] thinking I might have the "Shop" do these re-caps. It's kinda/sorta too-surgical [for me] beings the OE XO board is COMPACT and melt/remove/flux the OLD solder, er, uh ... got the better of me. I'd no idea de-soldering in tight space(s) could be that challenging. I ALMOST got it - got frustrated I "couldn't melt/remove QUICK" - and after leaving the iron 10 secs [or whatever] just made an unholy mess of the contact -- gosh it's embarrassing ... But a SOLDER SUCKER [versus] SOLDER WICK might very well have accomplished the mission; "learning the hard way!" maybe.
Anyhow -- and maybe this MATTERS??:
You typically read that "Gone, with Internet Age, are the days of sifting through bins to finding closely-matched capacitors ..." & "Just gotta rely upon suppliers' and tolerances."
I do UNDERSTAND that "within spec is within spec" and that variances MIGHT (not?!) affect transfer functions, might be inaudible, and might not. Maybe. That COULD be heavy into the weeds. HOWEVER, cap-matching [from L to R board] seems PREVALENT regardless, and I'd assume for good reason.
SO WHAT I DID? I ACTUALLY WENT to the Parts Shop (brick & mortar) and over their relatively asinine objections "borrowed" their Meter (the man BS'd, saying it was "Presently being offered to ANOTHER [fictitious] rabidly interested retail customer for $149") so the parts-person consequently chided me - king-sized B-hole - for selecting myself "matching" uF -- pairs -- that [turned out!] might OTHERWISE NOT REALLY HAVE BEEN TIGHT w/in 10% of spec ... I'm sorry I borrowed the man's Meter to pay him retail for what was advertised. I guess. Day BEFORE blithely sold me radial polar (wrong!) caps and wouldn't consider returning them "used" which they weren't (ten bucks or whatever) tho allegedly "knew" so much more having seen the OE board & caps w/ his own two eyes. Wrong for asking "helpful" help? He was EAGER to help & advise -- until he realized I knew so little of electronics and was TRYING diligently to be of Zero Nuisance -- but STILL -- "get in the gate safe & sound" w/o being (remaining) TOTALLY blind. He said he worked for JBL a decade. Then was heavily disappointed I hadn't contacted his heavily recommended "Local JBL [& whatnot] Tech." I guess that offended. He was trying DISCOURAGE any form DIY. Maybe we've all been to this movie? Hadda guy, brother's good friend, auto Tech, and a GOOD one, tell me, "You've NO BUSINESS under the hood of a car." He was right at that MOMENT in time! But a couple months later I (reasonably successfully) R&R control arms, UCA and LCA, ball joints, spindles, knuckle, whatever, tie-rod ends, on Crysler and Olds. No world-shaker obviously -- but with some research AND "sound advice" ... deepest apologies for the segue -- just that knee-jerk discouragement coming from those "too busy" RE "novice DIY" is senseless. Readily admit "Sometimes IS a good idea to discourage certain things!" So I'm not really a contrarian or position to know-one-way-or-other. Just enough to be dangerous myself or others Lol!
Any/everybody knows more electronics than I -- no reason rub a nose in it Lol! We all did damped HO and RLC circuits on "test questions" some point in school but my hands never spent any significant time w/ a scope (or anybody wanted to show me Lol! -- a lot basic/beginner electronics in school is "Me 1st World") and having time/inclination to practically beg inquiries about things vaguely worked on paper is humbling -- being older now wouldn't sneeze at some decent Lab time w/ advanced/intermediate/expert nearby -- almost trade my eye teeth Lol! It's all good. Happy to learn whatever ...
NOT "exaggerating" that whom(ever) might have purchased REMAINING pairs of caps -- for L/R Xo's -- from small handful available -- might have [actually] had to settle for something like a 11% or 12% "discrepancy" [measured] assuming of course precision which is/was quite accurate. I DON'T KNOW the "fallout of [slightly, i.e., 10-15% or even 20%] mis-matched caps" -- either some heavy duty debate about what may-or-may-not be audible -OR- practically no concrete (easily attainable! - thus far) indication about what DELETERIOUS EFFECTS these type discrepancies so-called might cause. Nobody with the measuring equipment (seemingly) has either studied this type (call it?) mismatch or taken time to report to hobbyists? I dunno. NO BIGGIE. INCONSEQUENTIAL. NO EARTH-SHATTERING REVELATIONS (forthcoming). Might be a moral, of sorts? You folks are all fantastic resources, so grateful (myself) even to have opportunity to refurbish/upgrade speakers. Several caps in the bins WERE w/in spec, most in fact, but a couple of them - 1 or 2 - were most definitely not w/in spec. The 22's came in at 19.1uF and 19.2uF (respectively) was as "close to parameters" as I could interpolate and the 44's are obsolete so I found 47's (all 100V I think) that measured about 45.4uF and 44.5uF if memory serves. One measured around 49.1uF and another 51.2uF but can see that if just randomly chosen might be a tad outside 10% from L to R board. I guess that'd still be acceptable. Not TRYING to kick dust, not TRYING for controversy; but "discussion towards this end" - I've encountered - is anecdotal. Unknowns in life happen. It's OK. But sure seems any (audio) engineer wouldn't object to (at least) aiming to minimize certain "wonks" -- and -- in event s/he couldn't, might, theoretically, given the spare time, simulate the function(s) variance(s), or actually apply some real-world measure up-to-including audible tests. I'm not even sure there exists a meaningful method Lol! I'm of this (sometimes) overwhelming impression that "subjective" testing almost always overrides any/all measurements, and surely that includes design simulation. Seems like obvious "categorical imperatives." It's SO into the minutiae for hobbyist, maybe not the engineer. I haven't been able to search the issue (myself) w/ any diligence but (have to) assume hobbyists GET their "loftiest techniques" from engineering and haven't seen (personally) any reports of "precisely how" variances in simple things like capacitance affect performance. Which leads one (like me ouch!) to GUESS that "Maybe its not measurable?" and subjectively thrown into the dust bin of obscurity.
"If the cymbal, on a stereo recording, is mixed equally L/R, mono-fashion, and a slight discrepancy between 2nd order capacitance in the XO causes the L speaker to render the crash a little louder than R speaker, not necessarily 10% louder beings there's no linearity," then does "Anybody even have a concern for such?" [given if I've even interpreted the filtering effects of caps correctly (or vaguely) in-the-least Lol!] So-called cap-matching inevitably must (or might) speak to something roughly along those lines, yet I can't discern if anybody's pursued it much besides "trust the ones you get, and Mylar ones are better anyhow," except that "get" means "get what you're stuck with" and refurb OE caps on older networks [electrolytic caps] seems suggestive (often enough) - mainly for board-mounting purposes - "Like for Like."
It's a practical thing; BIG (expensive replacement) caps don't easily go into SMALL [OE] boards. This sure seems a (fairly) common issue for re-cap that's (surprisingly) seldom considered, or addressed, however one wishes to phrase it. People like design & build "new" speakers apparently, rather than tidy-up older ones. To me, a cabinet construction is a major undertaking. That's a big build. Granted, learning, and gaining, some finesse w/ razor knife and solder iron involves ... well ... much smaller (scale) operation and smaller $$ provided -- big if -- 2nd-hand units with solid cabs w/ reasonable drivers abound. I'll never be "more than" hobbyist -- if even that. But de-soldering seems tricky to me. "We shall overcome!" Having a magnifier (in place) and a hands-free anchor system likewise seems important. There's a huge "basic tools for electronics repair" thread on another forum seems VERY helpful.
Spse when it comes to refurbish, No return-on-investment for the Engineer/designer/producer/distributor and/or even pro-electronics-guy, necessarily, sadly, but so MUCH "info" has got splattered all over the clicks&likes-world-we-live-in sometimes sifting the RIGHT "info" (predominantly what NOT to do i.e., "How [NOT!] To") sometimes (for novice such as myself) harder one might think Lol! To discriminate all that, I mean. But this (what you kind souls) have put above, in this thread, all seems "most excellent" and I'm grateful.
Is there a (likely?) "audible diff" between BA CR65/75 and (the rarer) CR67?
Almost (and maybe more pointed) or better Q: are any those better than Klipsch KB-15 Icon [5-1/4-Inch 2-Way]? It seems like the latter might be designed to (simply) produce a little louder than the Klipsch R-15M it's obvious "brother." So BOTH those one could (ideally) compare side-by-side BA CR65/75/85. I've yet to see anybody report ... SURPRISING, yet I guess is regarded as "cheap" so just buy 'em and be happy. I'm gonna buy the BA CR65 [used] today I think for about $60 inc. shipping.
AN ASIDE: I'm not into Bluetooth or any the more modern stuff -- CD audio playback is meat & potatoes for me. I do not really understand why speakers now seem to have "built-in amps" and confuses the heck out of me why. We use always a couple older amps mostly type A (I think -- from 15-20 years ago in the 80-100W RMS range) even I think an A-1 or whatnot runs a little hotter tempF -- or surround sound Stereo in the 90W RMS (A channel) -- just pretty big random stereo "old fashioned" Receivers from around 1998-2002 era (3 0r 4 total Lol!) and I've sure never tell any diff in ANY halfway-decent receiver 80+W A channel -- all-sound-same. Cant tell. Never tried to discriminate. Speakers are always end-game and for whatever crazy reason never twiddled around with sub-woofers if 8-10" floor stander works --- IOW we're HEARING Bonzo Bonham thumpin' or Entwistle or Wyman strummin' bla bla.
Steve F & A Adams -- both -- can't thank you both enough! Glad Tidings!
PS helluva long post -- but instincts tell me why toss the baby w/ the bathwater?