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lakecat

Bought one pine early AR3a.....

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5acfc1fabd0c9_ar3ainpine.thumb.jpg.9290db66725ca5fd54f71a16e2251090.jpgOff Ebay last week and still scratching my head as to why I did that!...lol.  I offered $280 and he accepted it. Guess I wanted to see if I could get that stain out of the pine and fix it up. Suppose to get it Saturday......and hope it ain't a wreck!! Still think I was goofy for doing it....we shall see.....sigh.

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You can always parts this out to get your money back. Pm me I'll take the tweeter as a spare. Just don't charge me 280.00 lol

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5 hours ago, arken said:

You can always parts this out to get your money back. Pm me I'll take the tweeter as a spare. Just don't charge me 280.00 lol

Umm...how about $250?...;)  I got it today and am sooo glad the drivers work well and pots are decent. First stab at refinishing pine....and will be my last.

Having a custom kitchen and bath business for over thirty years and never dealing with pine because it is a chit wood just shows me why it is rare on these cabinets. NO ONE WANTED IT!

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Nobody ever bought pine because they wanted pine. They bought it because they were planning on putting the speaker inside another cabinet, like a console, or mounting it at the back of a stage and painting it black and could save a few bucks by not getting a "finish" veneered cabinet.

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On 4/12/2018 at 4:29 PM, lakecat said:

Guess I wanted to see if I could get that stain out....

Good luck with this attempt, but it will most likely be a significant challenge. I have a pair of AR-4x pine cabs that were heavily painted, and with a lot of work, I was able to get them looking pretty good, but removing paint is very different from removing stain.

1 hour ago, genek said:

Nobody ever bought pine because they wanted pine.

Mostly true, but with these cabinets having a birch solid nosing and sitting horizontally on a deep bookshelf, I think they would offer a gorgeous alternative to the usual walnut and more walnut, ad infinitum. I like all of the blondies in pine or birch or korina. 

Even better looking than the 3a's in pine is this pair of 3's in pine. If they were mine, they'd be on display front and center - - it would be a shame to hide these away inside a "more aesthetic'"enclosure.

4x before:after.jpg

AR-3a pine x4.jpg

AR-3 blonde.jpg

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lakecat,

I am glad to hear that you made this purchase and that the speaker is fully operational. I'm looking forward to reading about your progress on this project. Getting this cabinet back to its original appearance may be one of the most difficult AR cabinet restoration challenges.

Back in the fall of 2016 I purchased a pair of pine AR-5's at an auction. One speaker had ring stains on the top panel (it looked like someone had left perfume bottles sitting on it), and the other had been painted white.

The only attempt I made to remove the ring stains was by sanding, and that alone removed most of the staining. This resulted in the stained area having a 'lighter' appearance than the surrounding area, and I'm OK with that. I could have continued sanding but I didn't want to get too aggressive with coarse grit on soft wood.

As with ra.ra's 4x's, removing the paint was a much bigger job due to the additional step of using a chemical stripper, mixed with more aggressive sanding. This worked very well and the only portion of the speaker that still has a small hint of white is the front birch molding, which I didn't dare sand any more.

Of course, paint and stain aren't the same, and I'm interested to see just how deeply this particular stain penetrated the skin of the 3a, and how much of it you'll be able to remove.

 

26010 top 1.jpg

26010 top 2.jpg

IMG_1630 small.jpg

IMG_2518 after paint removal.jpg

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Nice job on the 5's Jeff. Yea...paint would be a lot easier to remove and this project may not make it...but just wanted to try my luck. I applied two coats of remover just to the top side to start to remove the gunk. Third coat was removed with 0 steel wool. 

I then took a wet towel and steamed it with iron to see if any stain would come up....but alas...this pine is like a sponge and nothing on towel. Let the top dry and then sanded with 100 grit on orbital sander. It removed everything except fine lines of dark throughout the veneer.

I applied some bleach on small area to see if it would lift it. Nada.... so will try bottom section next...without the steam..to see if I screwed it up. If I get the same thing...then it is pretty much toast....and will have to restain. 

I may try sanding the top more today but raining like crazy and humid...so may wait. I hate sanding in shop if I can avoid it. Will have pics in a bit as I have to use camera and then download to laptop. This forum won't accept pics from my phone for some reason.

And yes...I knew they bought pine to put in cabinets or even painting them. I even bought a pair of 3's once that were in cabinets but were walnut veneer....and he said he didn't want to open cabinet to listen to music and see that ugly pine!..lol.  

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Yes, very nice job cleaning up those AR-5's JeffS.

4 hours ago, lakecat said:

....alas...this pine is like a sponge...

It sounds like you are making a valiant effort, L-cat, and your description here of this pine is pretty much what was feared you might encounter. Chemical remover, steaming, wood bleach and sanding . . . you're trying everything - - what else is there? Yes, please share pics when you get the chance - - it will be interesting to see just how deep these dark stains have affected the pine. 

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Quote

 

Here is a few pics. Top is sanded once and that off color spot near one corner is the bleach that I put on to see if it would do anything. Haven't sanded it yet. I think one more sanding is in order for top to see what happens. Thankfully, the veneer is thick. Rest of cabinet got the stripper and steel wool done....will sand when the weather is warmer....and more dry. Woofer was removed yesterday and dust cap pulled out as it was pushed in..same as tweeter cap...all fixed. Pots were soaked in salt and white vinegar and came out real nice...wipers are perfect. 

Close up pic of side cabinet shows the fine dark lines in veneer and the problem I will have trying to get those out or hidden somewhat. I love challenges so this is up there!...:)

IMG_4402.JPG

IMG_4409.JPG

IMG_4410.JPG

IMG_4413.JPG

IMG_4415.JPG

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Pine being a soft, porous wood, there's a good chance that some of the stain goes all the way down through the veneer. If that's the case, my suggestion, assuming you can get all the surfaces to a state similar to the top and not the side, is to "antique" the pine. Restaining will probably not produce any better results than what you started out with, while antiquing will help even the finish without "blotching" the color, a common problem when staining pine.

Here are some antiquing processes:

http://www.crosskeysantiques.com/Trade_tips/How_to_age_pine.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYH083c8dEw

 

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What type of wood bleach are you using? I evened out the veneer on a pair of Advent Heritage's with some Oxalic acid I got from Woodcraft. I think one speaker sat in the sunlight and the other in the shade and thus over time two different shades. The bleach did the trick.  There is also the two part Zinsser 300451 wood bleach, but I did not try it. What I have seen so far it looks very promising. Now let all keep a lookout for that matching 3a pine cabinet to complete the set.   

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5 hours ago, genek said:

Pine being a soft, porous wood, there's a good chance that some of the stain goes all the way down through the veneer. If that's the case, my suggestion, assuming you can get all the surfaces to a state similar to the top and not the side, is to "antique" the pine. Restaining will probably not produce any better results than what you started out with, while antiquing will help even the finish without "blotching" the color, a common problem when staining pine.

Here are some antiquing processes:

http://www.crosskeysantiques.com/Trade_tips/How_to_age_pine.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYH083c8dEw

 

Thanks for links. Not being solid pine may make these processes not applicable to veneer. At worst, I can use four parts paint thinner and one part off white oil paint to give it a unique look. I did that to my hall bathroom using those thin 3/8' pine tongue and groove three and half inch wide boards. Then used a water poly. Did it over fifteen years ago and still looks great. You Tube has everything but I see no solutions to removing stain from pine veneer....other than sanding....:)

 

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3 hours ago, larrybody said:

What type of wood bleach are you using? I evened out the veneer on a pair of Advent Heritage's with some Oxalic acid I got from Woodcraft. I think one speaker sat in the sunlight and the other in the shade and thus over time two different shades. The bleach did the trick.  There is also the two part Zinsser 300451 wood bleach, but I did not try it. What I have seen so far it looks very promising. Now let all keep a lookout for that matching 3a pine cabinet to complete the set.   

Hi Larry...not a wood bleach....just regular chlorine bleach....just seeing if it would lift anything. The wood bleaches is for water stains and such. Chlorine bleach takes stains out of clothes...like when you bleach blue jeans.....it removes the blue dye...sooooo.....was experimenting. Still looks like I will be sanding.....a lot...lol. The steaming did lift the dents and scratches on top so will do it to rest of cabinet. Found some marks when removing stain today. Any help on match would be great but may be next to impossible. Have been looking for a matching AR3 in cherry for awhile now....and nada.

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10 minutes ago, lakecat said:

Thanks for links. Not being solid pine may make these processes not applicable to veneer. At worst, I can use four parts paint thinner and one part off white oil paint to give it a unique look. I did that to my hall bathroom using those thin 3/8' pine tongue and groove three and half inch wide boards. Then used a water poly. Did it over fifteen years ago and still looks great. You Tube has everything but I see no solutions to removing stain from pine veneer....other than sanding....:)

The aging and refinishing processes are all on the surface and will work for veneer, though after all the stripping you may not have much tannin left in the wood to work with chemically.

As far as the stripping goes, you're already doing everything you can. There's no magic bullet for getting stain out of soft wood.

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8 hours ago, genek said:

The aging and refinishing processes are all on the surface and will work for veneer, though after all the stripping you may not have much tannin left in the wood to work with chemically.

As far as the stripping goes, you're already doing everything you can. There's no magic bullet for getting stain out of soft wood.

I have the stain out on top. It's just these fine dark lines in it. Nothing to do with graining.....it's like fine splits in the veneer. Never saw this before so experimenting some to see if I can lighten these splits.

I thought the steaming caused it until I saw the side of cabinet up close in the light before I touched it. It has those same fine lines in it also or cracking. 

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The veneer in non-finish grade plywood is rotary cut for economy. This produces the big swirls on the side panel and parallel micro cracks when the curl in the veneer is flattened. The cracks wouldn't normally be visible in unfinished, painted or clear finished plywood, but stain brings them out. If you can actually feel the cracks, you may be able to lighten them a bit more with a stronger bleach and then fill them with a grain/pore filler tinted to match the surrounding wood.

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7 hours ago, genek said:

The veneer in non-finish grade plywood is rotary cut for economy. This produces the big swirls on the side panel and parallel micro cracks when the curl in the veneer is flattened. The cracks wouldn't normally be visible in unfinished, painted or clear finished plywood, but stain brings them out. If you can actually feel the cracks, you may be able to lighten them a bit more with a stronger bleach and then fill them with a grain/pore filler tinted to match the surrounding wood.

Thanks for explanation...as I never screwed with pine veneer before. I noticed an AR2a in pine on Ebay when I expanded pic, I saw those cracks in white. If they are cracks. .then I can figure out a way to rub something in them. Will try bleach again...and let it set. May get some almond oil paint...thin it...and rub a section to see what happens ...but would like to get it lighter if possible. Will sand some more also.

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Use wood filler (make sure it's not the water based kind). Thin it with solvent until it's like heavy cream,brush it on and then wipe across the grain. Light sand after it dries.

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On 4/15/2018 at 6:30 PM, larrybody said:

What type of wood bleach are you using?

My experiences with wood bleaches have been reasonably successful, but with speaker restorations I've only used it to lighten the dreaded dark water stains too often found on walnut veneer. And in those instances, the product I used was procured from a hardware store and not from a woodworker store. This info was posted here before in a thread on AR-4's, but it's good to know about this product - - it is very inexpensive, and even though the company promotes no prescription for use on wood, the oxalic acid content is in effect a mild wood bleach. I have only used the original powder, made into a slurry for this use, but it is very gentle and easy to use. Larry, you should check it out - - it's origins occurred over 120 years ago over a pot of cooked rhubarb (yes, really!), and to this day it is manufactured in your capital city. 

https://www.barkeepersfriend.com/about-us/our-story/

10 hours ago, genek said:

The veneer in non-finish grade plywood...

I'm in full agreement with most of your statements about the problematic deep-soak stain in this outer layer of pine, but technically, it is not a veneer. It is simply the outer layer - - or ply - - of a pretty-good grade of manufactured construction plywood. Nonetheless, this outer surface of this material has very limited acceptable finish options, IMO.

While I'll be very interested to see the results of any applications of antiquing or almond oil paint, my thoughts at this point would be heading in this direction.    

AR-3a black 2.jpg

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1 hour ago, ra.ra said:

I'm in full agreement with most of your statements about the problematic deep-soak stain in this outer layer of pine, but technically, it is not a veneer. It is simply the outer layer - - or ply - - of a pretty-good grade of manufactured construction plywood. Nonetheless, this outer surface of this material has very limited acceptable finish options, IMO.

Every layer in plywood is veneer, a thin sheet of wood made by sawing or knife-cutting a log. Layers of veneer become plies when they're made into a layered product. If you ever try to make your own plywood (I did this once as part of a class on wood product manufacturing and I don't recommend trying it at home - ever), you can't call a supplier and order wood in "plies," it's all veneer, and is sold as either "face" or "back" grade. "Back" grade veneer is what becomes the inner plies in finish grade plywood and all the plies in non-finish or construction grades, and of course, "face" grade is the prettier stuff that goes on the outside of cabinet and furniture grades.

https://www.statesind.com/page/hardwood-plywood-terms

https://www.statesind.com/page/veneer-grading

The most effective bleaching agent for wood is sodium hydroxide (NaOH). It's nasty, caustic stuff that comes as a two-part product, you need to glove and mask up to mix and use it and after you've bleached the wood you have to neutralize the residue in the fibers with a mild acid like white vinegar, but it will definitely suck the color out of any wood it's used on. 

Thanks to their status as rare collectibles, the preferred "finish" of a pine AR is probably as close as you can get to completely unfinished wood. It's definitely a total flip on how woodworkers usually look at pine!

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10 hours ago, genek said:

Thanks to their status as rare collectibles, the preferred "finish" of a pine AR is probably as close as you can get to completely unfinished wood. It's definitely a total flip on how woodworkers usually look at pine!

This is so true, and rather ironic that the low-budget "utility" finish for AR classics is now highly sought after within certain circles.

Thx for the links above - - those are very good tech bulletins. I suppose I should not have said "technically" since these two terms are virtually interchangeable within the industry, but I think you know what I meant - - I was referring to the distinction of an outer decorative layer as opposed to the core of the panel product - - you know, the lipstick on the pig. The veneer grading literature describes standards for decorative plywood, but I have doubts that the pine panels used for AR utility cabinets would conform to these standards. 

 

ply - veneer.jpg

ply - veneer 2.jpg

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The AR pine cabinets were definitely not decorative (i.e., "Cabinet Grade") plywood; if they had been, their outer plies would have been sawn rather than knife-cut and the grain would have been straighter, as it is in solid wood. However, I've never seen one that had visible knots or places where holes had been repaired with patched-in wood, so I'd guess that in today's grading system they'd be classified as "A-Grade Veneer Core Construction."

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On 4/15/2018 at 4:40 PM, lakecat said:

Close up pic of side cabinet shows the fine dark lines in veneer and the problem I will have trying to get those out or hidden somewhat. I love challenges so this is up there!...:)

IMG_4413.JPG

 

Lakecat,

This looks promising and I'm looking forward to seeing the end result after you employ some of the ideas that have been mentioned here. Hopefully you can achieve a good result with the front birch molding as that is what you'll likely see the most.

4 hours ago, genek said:

The AR pine cabinets were definitely not decorative (i.e., "Cabinet Grade") plywood; if they had been, their outer plies would have been sawn rather than knife-cut and the grain would have been straighter, as it is in solid wood. However, I've never seen one that had visible knots or places where holes had been repaired with patched-in wood, so I'd guess that in today's grading system they'd be classified as "A-Grade Veneer Core Construction."

Genek,

I think I got the one that slipped by QC. I was surprised that this knot could be seen with the grill on.

AR-5 knot.jpg

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