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Ar3 with question

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Hello...

I just bought pair of ar3 speakers as the picture as link .https://xfl.jp/xVW1gw Could someone help me some concerns as:?

 

1. Looking to front side, which possible production year could be?

2. Looking to series number: is it correct one or fake series number to these speakers?

3. As the series number is closed for both speakers? But the cabinets are different, why?

Thank you very much

https://xfl.jp/xVW1gw

 

 

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Very nice AR3s but there two things that make me suspicious. 

1. They are too clean to have not been reworked, which leads to all kinds of questions.

2. The serial numbers are sequential but the cabinet joinery is very different.  xxx96 has lock miter joints and 97 does not.

Adams

 

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Congrats you acquired the nice AR-3 speakers with the low serial number, in my own thinking : since the drivers are in original ( likes most of the Vietnamese liked '' cầu nổi, or AR 1 woofer ..) except a part of this pair is fake ,,,,, the serial number ( fake reprint the serial tag, remake the grills,) otherwise all the drivers are in original..

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On 7/17/2019 at 8:45 AM, Bin said:

Hello...

I just bought pair of ar3 speakers as the picture as link .https://xfl.jp/xVW1gw Could someone help me some concerns as:?

 

1. Looking to front side, which possible production year could be?

2. Looking to series number: is it correct one or fake series number to these speakers?

3. As the series number is closed for both speakers? But the cabinets are different, why?

Thank you very much

https://xfl.jp/xVW1gw

 

 

The serial numbers for this pair of AR-3s are inconsistent with the physical appearance of the speakers themselves, for some reason.  SNs 43896 and 43897 would have been manufactured in the 1964-1965 time-frame, yet these speakers look like 1959-1960 models with their early front terminal strip and the treated-cloth surrounds without the later-added lamp-black treatment for the woofers.  How are the cabinets different?  With consecutive serial numbers, it would indicate that the speakers were built virtually at the same time.  Consecutive numbers aren't particularly rare, but AR speaker were never intentionally shipped out from AR as a "pair" with consecutive numbers.    The most unusual thing is the lack of the standard oval-shaped, flush terminal strip rather than the earliest version mounted above the baffle.  The serial numbers strangely do not have the "C" in front of the serial numbers.  This is unusual, and it's hard to determine what's going on.  The drivers are also earlier, but in seemingly excellent, unmolested condition from the one image. 

More pictures would be very helpful.

--Tom Tyson

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7 minutes ago, tysontom said:

Add to the mix that the grills and the "3" pin are not original.

The serial number stamp doesn't look authentic, and it lacks the "C" as mentioned earlier.

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11 hours ago, tysontom said:

The serial numbers for this pair of AR-3s are inconsistent with the physical appearance of the speakers themselves, for some reason.  SNs 43896 and 43897 would have been manufactured in the 1964-1965 time-frame, yet these speakers look like 1959-1960 models with their early front terminal strip and the treated-cloth surrounds without the later-added lamp-black treatment for the woofers.  How are the cabinets different?  With consecutive serial numbers, it would indicate that the speakers were built virtually at the same time.  Consecutive numbers aren't particularly rare, but AR speaker were never intentionally shipped out from AR as a "pair" with consecutive numbers.    The most unusual thing is the lack of the standard oval-shaped, flush terminal strip rather than the earliest version mounted above the baffle.  The serial numbers strangely do not have the "C" in front of the serial numbers.  This is unusual, and it's hard to determine what's going on.  The drivers are also earlier, but in seemingly excellent, unmolested condition from the one image. 

More pictures would be very helpful.

--Tom Tyson

 

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Hello Tyson

really appriciate for prompt and details reply

i attached here is the link for more picture

https://xfl.jp/vm1nUL

 

I think the series number should be the fake one as per your findings. But i just curiously why people doing this fake?

 

 

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On 7/18/2019 at 3:12 AM, Liangshan Marsh said:

Congrats you acquired the nice AR-3 speakers with the low serial number, in my own thinking : since the drivers are in original ( likes most of the Vietnamese liked '' cầu nổi, or AR 1 woofer ..) except a part of this pair is fake ,,,,, the serial number ( fake reprint the serial tag, remake the grills,) otherwise all the drivers are in original..

I’m wondering how can you know the pairs is low series number

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First clue the type of terminal block for tweeter and midrange cables and the type of midrange (study The AR3 restoration guide).
Congratulations on the wonderful pair of early AR3 in your hands!
Giorgio.

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41 minutes ago, Giorgio AR said:

First clue the type of terminal block for tweeter and midrange cables and the type of midrange (study The AR3 restoration guide).
Congratulations on the wonderful pair of early AR3 in your hands!
Giorgio.

Thanks Giorgio. By the way, my friend is asking what’s happen when he remove the white glue arround mid range speaker? Could you help?

thanks 

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17 hours ago, Bin said:

Hello Tyson

really appriciate for prompt and details reply

i attached here is the link for more picture

https://xfl.jp/vm1nUL

 

I think the series number should be the fake one as per your findings. But i just curiously why people doing this fake?

 

 

Clearly the serial numbers are incorrect (and the date-stamp font is also incorrect along with the absence of the "C" in the serial number) for some reason, but I don't know why this would be unless the original serial numbers were pretty far apart and the seller felt that this might detract from their value, which it really won't.  Consecutive serial numbers in AR speakers really don't mean anything, and it's fairly rare and usually "coincidental" that two have consecutive numbers.  Serial numbers far apart do have significance with regard to components, crossovers, etc., but these two appear to have been built pretty close together.  Send some pictures of the two speakers with their grills off, side-by-side.  Also, pictures of the other crossover, if possible.

These AR-3s are definitely early versions, likely dating to 1960-61.  If you look at any of the drivers (the midrange or tweeter, particularly but sometimes on the woofer), you can usually find a date stamped on the back plate of the magnet circuit.  Try to locate a stamped date.  The presence of the oil-filled, mil-spec surplus crossover capacitors (the best kind, actually) clearly proves that these speakers date back to the earliest versions.  Someone appears to have changed the level controls, however, as they don't look original to the AR-3.  Woofer details are also present that show the orange surround color (before AR added lamp-black to the treatment), the damping ring around the outside of the woofer cone just inside the surround, and that sort of thing.  The woofer has the Gen 2 cone annular rings and foam damping rings, which came about a year or so after the introduction of the AR-3, probably late 1960 or early 1961.  The terminal strip is early, too, as mentioned before.  I'm thinking that the original serial numbers for these speakers would be something in the C 04500 to C 07500 range or so.

If both speakers work properly, then you're in fine shape with only the fraudulent "sequential" serial numbers and the wrong grill cloth material and relatively crude "3" pins.  It doesn't appear that any drivers have been changed from the pictures you show, but I haven't seen both speakers.  Look on the woofer magnet back plate to see if you can find a date stamp.

--Tom Tyson 

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On 7/17/2019 at 8:45 AM, Bin said:

As the series number is closed for both speakers? But the cabinets are different,

It seems improbable that these cabs were consecutive units when receiving serial numbers.

Aadams

image.png.68c08d1b64fb126112515e6246f2e999.png

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4 minutes ago, Aadams said:

It seems improbable that these cabs were consecutive units when receiving serial numbers.

Aadams

image.png.68c08d1b64fb126112515e6246f2e999.png

Why does it even matter?

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8 hours ago, tysontom said:

Why does it even matter?

It only matters if they are being passed off as original AR with consecutive numbering as part of the provenance.   The joint on the right does not look like any of the joints on non euro classics that I have seen. You may know  of exceptions. Otherwise they are appear to be a well done project that hopefully operate exactly as an AR3 should.

Adams

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12 hours ago, tysontom said:

Clearly the serial numbers are incorrect (and the date-stamp font is also incorrect along with the absence of the "C" in the serial number) for some reason, but I don't know why this would be unless the original serial numbers were pretty far apart and the seller felt that this might detract from their value, which it really won't.  Consecutive serial numbers in AR speakers really don't mean anything, and it's fairly rare and usually "coincidental" that two have consecutive numbers.  Serial numbers far apart do have significance with regard to components, crossovers, etc., but these two appear to have been built pretty close together.  Send some pictures of the two speakers with their grills off, side-by-side.  Also, pictures of the other crossover, if possible.

These AR-3s are definitely early versions, likely dating to 1960-61.  If you look at any of the drivers (the midrange or tweeter, particularly but sometimes on the woofer), you can usually find a date stamped on the back plate of the magnet circuit.  Try to locate a stamped date.  The presence of the oil-filled, mil-spec surplus crossover capacitors (the best kind, actually) clearly proves that these speakers date back to the earliest versions.  Someone appears to have changed the level controls, however, as they don't look original to the AR-3.  Woofer details are also present that show the orange surround color (before AR added lamp-black to the treatment), the damping ring around the outside of the woofer cone just inside the surround, and that sort of thing.  The woofer has the Gen 2 cone annular rings and foam damping rings, which came about a year or so after the introduction of the AR-3, probably late 1960 or early 1961.  The terminal strip is early, too, as mentioned before.  I'm thinking that the original serial numbers for these speakers would be something in the C 04500 to C 07500 range or so.

If both speakers work properly, then you're in fine shape with only the fraudulent "sequential" serial numbers and the wrong grill cloth material and relatively crude "3" pins.  It doesn't appear that any drivers have been changed from the pictures you show, but I haven't seen both speakers.  Look on the woofer magnet back plate to see if you can find a date stamp.

--Tom Tyson 

Thank Tom Tyson

i attached more pictures. Seems i didn’t find any date stamped on tweeters and woofer. 

https://xfl.jp/rhFqM6

 

one thing I need your help to clarify since I found a hole inside of cabinet where close to tweeters driver. Are these cabinets same as ar3 later rather than earlier ?

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From the condition of the white labels, if someone did change the serials, it would have to have happened quite a long time ago.

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4 hours ago, genek said:

From the condition of the white labels, if someone did change the serials, it would have to have happened quite a long time ago.

Thank you Genk. 

Why I posted here is I really need your well-known on Ar speakers than me to clarify these speakers have any fake issues or not. Since I have to pay usd3,500 and get back for something going wrong then better I have to return it.

From my last pictures upload links. I suspect that all drivers have been put in later cabinets even you can see wax- capacitors was replaced by oil-capacitor as the wax-capacitor positions and holder still there. From last picture, I found the oval-hole inside of cabinets that someone try to hide it by earlier terminal strip..ect...

@tysontom Do you also think this is a potential fake?

Very much thank you all for support me to clarify this...

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What would you call "fake?:  These appear to be real AR-3 cabinets with real AR-3 drivers and mostly original AR-3 parts.  They might be a pair of AR-3s reconstructed using parts cannibalized from other AR-3s.  Considering the age of the model, this s not an unusual thing to see here in the US, and for most of us here the important consideration would be that the workmanship is good and the speakers operate properly.

So they are not "fake" AR-3s. But if someone is claiming they are an all-original matching pair of AR-3s with sequential serial numbers, that's definitely fake, because there never was such a thing in the history of AR.

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The cabinets are true, the speakers are original (all 6 speakers), the labels are real, the numbers are serial: if originally there was no number, the AR3 would still be serial (both labels, originally without number!) , the cabinets with 2 different finishes, as Tom T. teaches is also a common thing: both built in the same period, I see nothing but a nice pair of early AR3, almost certainly sequential and matched.

I have the same opinion as Genek, in my opinion (he sends two detailed photos of the complete labels) even the numbers on the labels could be made in the factory, beyond the normal numbering.

Giorgio

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On 7/19/2019 at 5:14 PM, Bin said:

Thanks Giorgio. By the way, my friend is asking what’s happen when he remove the white glue arround mid range speaker? Could you help?

thanks 

If your friend has only "removed" the white glue arround mid range speaker, and the mid. it worked, it is backed up exactly in its place, the speaker returns intact.
Find many tips on how to successfully restore the speakers, although from the photos I've seen, the speakers should be ok.

Giorgio.

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19 minutes ago, Giorgio AR said:

The cabinets are true, the speakers are original (all 6 speakers), the labels are real, the numbers are serial: if originally there was no number, the AR3 would still be serial (both labels, originally without number!) , the cabinets with 2 different finishes, as Tom T. teaches is also a common thing: both built in the same period, I see nothing but a nice pair of early AR3, almost certainly sequential and matched.

I have the same opinion as Genek, in my opinion (he sends two detailed photos of the complete labels) even the numbers on the labels could be made in the factory, beyond the normal numbering.

Giorgio

That’s a confident explaination for me. Thanks a lot for that.

 

i have a small question when you said “..even the numbers on the labels could be made in the factory, beyond the normal numbering...”. Could it means ar factory have another internal running number beside the serial number before ship out to customer?

 

 

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Today, i found a interesting on guarantee sheet stick behind cabinets without any signature by tester and inspector for both speakers as it should have.

Does it any sense for you?

 

link: https://xfl.jp/pKq2fe

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Bin, I think you have 100% authentic AR-3 loudspeakers, no question there.  What I do see, however, is that someone has tampered with the labels on the back and altered the serial numbers.  I know that those serial numbers are not authentic, mainly because of the supporting evidence we've reported.  You've raised yet another question, why weren't these speakers signed-off?  I've never seen a pair that got through final inspection without a signature; it was required of the quality-control employees to sign-off on everything that went through the plant, from the anechoic testing of each individual driver down to the final production-line inspection and testing.

In the end, however, I suspect that the sellers had two AR-3s that were early models with authentic drivers in good condition.  The original, true serial numbers might have been many units apart, for example, one might have been C 04690 and the other might have been C 07201, for example, but still the same driver configuration and style, and the sellers probably thought that they would not bring as much money if left that way.  Also, the original labels on the back might have been damaged or worn off, etc., and the sellers simply put on "new" labels.  There are some original AR speaker labels floating around that belonged to AR that had not been put on the back panel of the AR speakers itself.  I know, because I have one or two that I got from Roy Allison years ago.  The grills and original grill panels were obviously damaged or broken, along with the missing original brass logos, etc. 

So, therefore, the sellers decided that they could get more money for the speakers if they could make them look like "mint-condition," consecutive-number AR-3s and demand a higher price for them.  This in no way detracts from the speakers and their original drivers!  It is simply a reflection on the sellers who refurbished them.

--Tom Tyson 

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Dear  Tom and all

it would be very nice to see your comment . Now, I’m coming back to happiness with good ar3 pairs appearance .

 Thank a lots

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