JKent Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 Found this cool KLH sign on ebay for what seemed like a good price compared to the one or 2 others I've seen. Of course when it arrived I found "issues."These must have been dealers' signs back in the '60s or '70s. The sign lights up: The turquoise bars in the background flash on and off, and the "KLH" letters flash on/off and also sparkle!On this one the background did not light at all and the KLH letters only came on--no sparkle Opened it up. The background lights were no problem--they're just refrigerator type incandescent bulbs. I may replace them with A15 LED bulbs to cut down on the heat. The "sparkle" effect is produced by an odd looking bulb (obsolete projector lamp as it turns out) and a slowly-turning wheel. The light is transmitted to the KLH letters by fiber optics.Two big issues: The motor did not work, and what if the projector lamp blows? The back says new bulbs are available from Fibre-Lite Displays, Inc. but they're long gone. The bulb is marked "Sylvania DJS 6v 30w" and after extensive searching I found one.....for 50 bucks! But further searching turned up a substitute: DKN 35w 6v. And an ebay seller had them for $10. I don't think the additional 5w will be a problem.The motor is marked "Singer" (of course. So maybe this is from the '70s) "Model 414-173-20 115v 60Hz 3w 4RPM CCW". I was SURE I wouldn't find one of those! But.... Good ol' ebay to the rescue again! I found a Chinese seller who sells motors that "looked" a lot like the original. Metric of course but for $8.50 shipped I took a chance. This one is 4w and 5/6 RPM but close enough. And instead of a threaded shaft to hold the plastic wheel it had an internally-threaded shaft. This required some modification, but very little:Cut the aluminum bushing on the wheelUse a metric machine screw to affix the wheel to the motorBecause of the length of the motor's shaft I had to mount the motor on some spacers from my junk drawer.Not bad. The new motor was otherwise a perfect fit, right down to the spacing of the mounting holes!So that's it. First photo shows the Chinese & Singer motors. Second is the innerds "before" Third the innerds "after" and finally the sign lit up. Wish I could post a video here because it looks really cool!-Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkermes Posted July 29, 2014 Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 Very cool! Maybe you could put up a video on YouTube, and link it here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Very cool! Maybe you could put up a video on YouTube, and link it here?OK. My first attempt at posting on YouYube. We'll see how it turns out..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkermes Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 the video works very nicely, thanks for putting it together. That was a nifty little project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Agreed, very nice little vid, and thanks. Academy award nomination, Documentary category? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Interesting. I decided to replace the two A15 appliance bulbs (upper left and right corners in the second and third photo above in Post #1) with LED bulbs to eliminate some of the heat. When I did, those bulbs remained lit--no flashing. Apparently whatever makes them flash is dependent on a temperature increase. I reinstalled the incandescent bulb on the right (first one in the circuit) and now the flashing works again, even with an LED in the other socket. That's good because the fibers tend to brush against that bulb and the LED is totally cold, so no chance of melting or scorching.-Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan461 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Way too many videos on YouTube are accompanied by obnoxious noise (music???).Yours is a well recorded video which is very pleasant, relaxing and to the point.YouTube posters could learn much from your post.Well done!BTW, your voice sounds like it belongs to a much younger man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thr33p4c Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Very cool sign and nice fix. After I read the first post I was going to ask for a video demo not knowing their would be instant gratification below. Modern dealer signs are lame compaired to this. I work at a home theater installation business and feel bad now for getting excited about our new Definitive Technology sign which was just their logo on a piece of black acrylic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Update: As luck would have it I found another one of these signs. It worked but I had to mess with it ? Someone had re-wired it so instead of the big projector bulb it used a little #82 auto bulb. There were some other minor issues: Transformer had broken loose, fiber-optic bundle was loose, glass front was loose. One interesting thing is that originally the other 2 bulbs were "KLH Turquoise" colored 10w incandescents. One works but the other did not survive shipping. I found some "ceramic green" 11w bulbs on ebay that may work. The big problem is the projector lamp. I removed the auto bulb and socket and rewired the original 4-pin projector socket. I had a replacement projector bulb so I inserted it and plugged the sign in. The projector bulb smoked internally and never lit. Odd. The only difference here was switching the 2 wires from the auto bulb socket to the projector bulb socket. I don't really understand the circuit--there's a transformer but also a metal box. So I temporarily switched back to the auto bulb. It works! Checked the voltage going to it and it's 5.9VAC. Tried hooking up a 12v halogen high beam and that works too but doesn't give much more light than the #82. Was the projector bulb bad? Could it be the projector bulb socket?? I don't want to risk smoking another $10 bulb. Is it possible the DKN isn't REALLY a replacement for the DJS? The DJS, btw, seems to be total unobtainium. Further investigation is needed before I blow another projector bulb! I may have to ask my favorite electronics technician to take a look at it. edit: Tim is helping me with this. One initial thought was that since the xformer is making 6VAC, bulbs designed for DC (such as specialized automotive or LED) may not work. The combination of 6v AND AC makes replacing a bit of a quandry. The photo shows the auto light (blue wires). Those originally went to the projector socket so I re-connected them. The DJS projector bulb in the photo also broke during shipping so I used a new old stock DKN projector bulb. To the right are the transformer and the unidentified metal box. My guess is that box may have something to do with the flashing turquoise lights. As mentioned above, those lights have to warm up before they will flash--LEDs won't work--there must be at least one incandescent. I also noticed the motor didn't turn until the thing was warmed up (while still using the auto bulb). I really don't want to go back to the auto bulb because it isn't nearly as bright as the projector lamp. Will post again when I have some answers. -Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 They say when you hear hoofbeats, don't think "zebras!" The DKN bulb that went kerflooey must have been defective. Ordered another and just to be safe tested it in Sign #1 by bringing it up on a Variac. Worked fine so I switched it to Sign #2 and again used the Variac. It's all good. I replaced the broken turquoise 10 watt bulb with a "ceramic green" 11 watt. It works well but to me the flashing lights are too dim. I may go back to what I used in sign #1: One 25 watt white incandescent and one 25W equivalent LED. As I discovered with sign #1, the first flashing bulb MUST be incandescent or the bulbs won't flash. The 2nd bulb can be LED, which is good because the fiber-optic threads can lean on the bulb and the LED won't cause any melting. The motor is a little temperamental. Maybe a little oil will get it going consistently. Otherwise I may need another Chinese microwave motor. So there it is. Two cool KLH signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yes, very nice signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidhead Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 nice Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2018 Thanks, guys. Well, the saga continues. . . . The 11w ceramic green incandescents were indeed too dim and the kind ebay seller accepted their return. I had tried to remove the wheel from the motor but it was frozen on. Sprayed some PB-Blaster on it but still stuck,. So a couple of weeks later I discover NOTHING works and while trying to get to the bottom of that find the PB Blaster has done its job and the wheel comes off easily. But the motor is dead! Maybe the lube was bad for the internal parts. So I'm looking for another microwave motor like the one I bought 4 years ago but most of them now have solid shafts. Finally found one with an internally threaded shaft so I'll have to do the same mods as last time. Speed is different: The original was 3W, 4RPM. First sign got a 4w 5-6RPM and works fine. This one will get a 4W 2.5 -3RPM. Guess it will look a little less "sparkly". Too frustrated to track down what's going on with the lights so when the new motor comes I'll get down to work and maybe post a photo if there's anything new to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Is it worth considering LEDs with some sort of diode arrangement? Lots more light for the watts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted October 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Hi dxho. Thanks for the interest. Not knowledgeable enough about electronics to understand how one would make "some sort of diode arrangement". For the flashing lights: They were originally teal-color 10 watt incandescents. The "ceramic green" 11w incandescents were far too dim. What does seem to work perfectly well is one 25w white incandescent and one 25w-equivalent white LED. This gives plenty of light and allows the flasher to work. I do plan to experiment with 25w teal incandescent and LED. Just have to be careful about the physical size. I may dis-assemble the whole box. I'm not satisfied with the shoddy way it's put together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 Sorry, thought you were confined to AC current. Looks like you already have a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bruce Posted May 1, 2022 Report Share Posted May 1, 2022 I need the same two items, the motor and bulb. Can you help me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted May 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 Jim, Beyond what I wrote in the first post I don't know what more I can tell you but will help if I can. I don't see the DJS 6V 30W or the DKN 35w 6v on ebay but there are internet sellers with the DKN 35w 6v for about $25. The motor was for a microwave and I see lots of those on ebay for around $12 each or less. Be sure you get one for 110VAC. Some are for 220V. You also have to look at the shaft because you'll need to adapt it. I was lucky to find one that was threaded but many appear to have a D shape plastic shaft. Here are pics of one of the motors I used (this one went in the 2nd sign). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bruce Posted May 2, 2022 Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 Thanks, what about the projector bulb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bruce Posted May 2, 2022 Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 This is my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted May 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 Yeah, essentially the same as the KLH sign. If the motor is toast a 110V microwave stirring motor will work. I was lucky to find 2 with internal threaded shafts so I just needed a metric machine screw to attach that plastic disc. You'll have to figure out how to adapt the disc to whatever motor you use. I also had to use some spacers on the screws that attached the new motor but that's no biggie. I hope the transformer is good! Everything looks a little cruddy. Hope you get it up & running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted May 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 16 minutes ago, Jim Bruce said: Thanks, what about the projector bulb. 20 hours ago, JKent said: I don't see the DJS 6V 30W or the DKN 35w 6v on ebay but there are internet sellers with the DKN 35w 6v for about $25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bruce Posted May 2, 2022 Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 And the projector lamp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bruce Posted May 2, 2022 Report Share Posted May 2, 2022 Okay ordered the motor. Now for the bulb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted May 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 On 5/2/2022 at 6:19 PM, Jim Bruce said: Okay ordered the motor Yeah. For anyone else interested I went on ebay and searched for "synchronous motor". Then there's a place on the left to select Voltage. I chose 110V and 115V. A whole bunch of motors that look like mine (previous post) popped up. A typical listing is "Electric Motor Synchronous 50/60Hz AC 110-127V 4W CCW/CW AC Motor 2.5-3RPM US". The one in Jim's sign is 3W, 4RPM, CCW. I don't think any of those values are critical because the motor is just turning the plastic disc that gives the lettering "sparkle". 4W is fine. I didn't see 4RPM but they do have 2.5 - 3RPM and 5 - 6RPM. I used 5-6RPM in the first sign (shown below, with spacers) and 2.5-3RPM in the second. I'm sure the rotation direction doesn't matter but most are reversible. The only modifications needed are the addition of the correct size metric machine screw (and probably a washer) to attach the plastic disk and I had to use some standoffs or spacers when I mounted the motor but all things considered it was nearly a drop-in replacement. The mounting holes even lined up. Looking forward to seeing how your project is coming along Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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