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Best AR Speakers?


Guest leopoldstotch

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Guest leopoldstotch

Having recently aquired a pair of AR-2ax speakers I was wondering which AR speaker do most of you consider the "best" model? Also which vintage receiver would really make the AR-2ax's shine? I look forward to your suggestions. Thanks.

Bruce

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Hi Bruce,

Congratulations on your AR-2ax's a fine speaker and a personal favorite of mine.

Your question about which AR model is the best, depends on which era you are looking at. During the reign of the AR-2ax 1964-1976, the answer could be the AR-3, AR-3a or AR-LST depending on what year you are refering to.

I am defining the "best" as the most advanced model of the time. There is of course room for personal preference. Joe is pointing to the AR-3, and he is speaking as a very knowledgeable recording industry person. He also has young ears, and is not on this forum for only sentimental reasons.

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>Having recently aquired a pair of AR-2ax speakers I was

>wondering which AR speaker do most of you consider the

>"best" model? Also which vintage receiver would

>really make the AR-2ax's shine? I look forward to your

>suggestions. Thanks.

> Bruce

Hi Bruce;

The AR-2AX's are a great, well respected classic speaker.

My vote would be, the AR_LST's, with an appropriate amp, related equipment and a suitable listening area.

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It is hard to say which speaker is best. Speakers, like all hifi gear, are highly subjective. Sure, we can sit down and compare spec sheets and measurements to objectivly find out which speaker is technically the best, but this really does no good. If the end result happens to be a model that has a sound that you don't care for, sifting through the data is useless.

It all comes down to personal preference. That is why I said in my last post that "my favorite model is the AR-3", and not "the best speaker is the AR-3".

I write for an audiophile magazine, and it is very hard if not impossible to write an unbiased review of a component. Personal preference always weighs heavily into the outcome of the reviews.

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The AR-2ax is somewhat easier to drive than it's big brothers. There are lots of choices.

As for recievers, I second Joe's opinion on older Marantz units. Try the 2270 (70 RMS watts per channel) I found the 2245 a little weak. In addition, The 1970's brought a ton of high quality Japanese units to the market. A very good and very conservativly rated 45 watt unit in my experience, is the Sony STR-6055. Other models like it should be good as well. The AR reciever is great as well.

In an integrated amplifier, the Marantz 1150 works well (75 WPC). Moving up in cost would be the McIntosh MA5100 and MA6100(45 and 70 watts). Either of those would be a great investment. Of course the AR amplifier is great too.

There are really lots of choices.

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I forgot about those!

McIntosh integrated amps are very good. My ideal choice do drive my AR-3's would be a McIntosh MC402, which is 400 watts per channel (into any load). McIntosh amps produce exceptionally clean power, and are capable of easily driving tough loads like the AR-3 with almost no measurable distortion. However, McIntosh products are very expensive.

If you are on a budjet, Adcom power amps are excellent for driving AR speakers. I have been driving my AR-2's with an Adcom GFA-5400 which is 125 watts per channel into 8 ohms (200 into 4).

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>>Having recently aquired a pair of AR-2ax speakers I was

>>wondering which AR speaker do most of you consider the

>>"best" model? Also which vintage receiver would

>>really make the AR-2ax's shine? I look forward to your

>>suggestions. Thanks.

>> Bruce

>

>

>Hi Bruce;

>

>The AR-2AX's are a great, well respected classic speaker.

>

>My vote would be, the AR_LST's, with an appropriate amp,

>related equipment and a suitable listening area.

>

>

7-25-06

Dear members, please let it be known that I did not. I repeat, I did not pay “Vern” to say this, but, dang-it, he’s oh so correct for doing so! Now let’s get back to me, myself and “I” and AR. Then, maybe we’ll get back to this gentleman’s question.

I’ve never quite loved any speaker as much as I do the AR-LST’s, and for that matter 3a’s too. After that I’m into big 1990’s “Apogees” and into another world altogether for my ‘head’ to dream-on, but not purchase.

I must add of course that for any individual to ever appreciate a vintage AR-3, or 3a, or LST’s, it is essential to use at least a 200 watt per channel amp to drive them to their fullest potential. Speaking for myself I drive 3a’s and LST’s with Phase Linear Series1 400's, which can actually ‘put-out’ approximately 400 watts RMS per channel into 4 ohms on paper. I could only imagine what a Phase Linear D-500, or “Manley-500”, Boulder, Bryston 4B, and on and on, amp must sound like.

Let’s not ever forget “Julian Hirsch’s” “S-R’s” magazine report about the LST’s being driven by a Phase Linear700B for testing. He reported that they could have even ‘absorbed’ more watts RMS than that! That amp is app. 700 RMS per channel at 4 ohms. Please don’t be ‘put-off’ by my comments here as I actually started in 1972 driving my AR-3a’s with a “Dynaco” ST-35 tube amp which was truly ‘running-out-of-steam” driving them until I built my Dynaco ST-120 and that amp took me to new and certainly lofty heights in driving my 3a’s, with a mere 67 watts RMS per. My mind was very open in my early days of Hi-Fi, ’67 to ’74, presently it’s 50/50. It may be said by some that ‘today’ most people only hear music and sound-systems, whereas back then most ‘listened’ intensely as it was growing at such a rapid pace and getting so good to boot.

Then in 1974 I took the ‘plunge’, ‘bit-the-bullet’ and bought into the S/S ‘super-power’ amps that were becoming all of the rage back then in ’70 to ’80. My original ’74 PL400 is still with me, but unfortunately not working and has become a ‘parts-car’ for my other wonderfully performing PL400’s. Sure I admit these ‘brutes’ are using ‘off-the-shelve’ high voltage ‘trannies’ of their time, and even ‘geranium’ devices (is that a flower’s spelling?) which at this present time would be considered wrong to do, stupid and with too many inherent problems. And Vern I do fuse as I always have since way back in the day.

I will end my diatribe by relating a story I was told in 1991 by a British employee of AR I spoke to at what may have been AR’s last spectacular- show casing of their new high-end component amp and pre-amp, which I don’t remember the model numbers they came out with then, the show was at “Singer-Stereo”, one of the last remaining high-end stores in Manhattan to date. I timidly told this ‘AR- guru’ about my then fully functioning ‘stacked’ AR-LST array, being driven in parallel by my original PL400. After he listened with some amusement to my story, he told me of being with a bunch of AR higher staff personal in England doing the same with stacked AR-LST’s, using 2 Phase Linear 700b’s back in 1974. He said if I can recall, “The best that there was, or could ever be for the world’s ears”! A beaming smile came to his face as he recalled his then state of listening nirvana.

Of course if we’re talking 40 to 50 grand for other stuff, then we’re on a different horse and state of minds. I don’t go there, do any of you?

Now all of you ‘non-believers’ may balk and or even doubt that these particular amps are not what their ‘cult-followers’ say these monsters sound like. But if we’re talking strictly vintage late 1960’s to 1980 sound, these babies are the ‘cat’s meow’! Sure they can be problematic, obsolete and sometimes ‘slow’ and even ‘hurtful’, but damn, the amount of ‘SLAM”, extension and strength after a full warm-up is something to behold. Listening to anything else would be academic for sure.

Of course there’s other better gear, but do you have the cash for it? I don’t! Yes there are more reliable and perhaps better sounding at a higher price, but I’m in my ‘groove’ and that is all pure 70’s vintage and I’m staying here when it comes to sound equipment. Where your head and ears? I don’t care, let’s get back to me.

I’m sure if anyone else has the time, you’ll counter my beliefs, but so what, this is like I said ‘vintage’, which is subject to interpretation and certainly I’m being biased. So what! If you want other stuff, go ahead, be my guest and enjoy your stuff and invite me over, but would you be enjoying more than I am? That's fully debatable.

Your friend and mine, Frank Marsi*

*The Too Far Gone Pure AR-PL, Nut!

(Any counter will have to fight a man who actually served on two sister ships that amongst their many other guns had 9- 16 inch, 3000 pound

projectile armaments in the great world war second. No I wasn’t in that war, put I worked on the battleships circa 1969-70 and they taught me what was considered then and still now ‘ultimate-greatness’ and power of man's machines!)

FM

Pardon the usual tendency of my usual ‘verbose’ ramblings (ha, ha), but history should always be detailed. And don’t forget “a little knowledge is dangerous”. And also pardon me for I seek affirmation in confirming my own opinions, don’t we all? I’m having fun in this crazy vintage AR addiction, it’s almost too silly, and so am I, how about you?

Right now I’m cranking Lynynd Skynyrd with “Free-Bird” live, re-mastered. I ride the NYC subway everyday, so 100+db is no big deal for me listening at home.

FM

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Guest postjob62

Bruce, your post makes me smile. Nothing seems to generate passion on this forum more quickly than "favorite AR speaker" or "best amp to drive AR's" questions. And in the end, while some facts are irrefutable, the answer of necessity comes down to pure subjective opinion.

I myself come down on the early '70's 3a side of the poll, but then again I've never heard an LST and probably never will. But the 3a satisfies everything I have ever needed in a speaker and I truly don't feel the need to go further. This is true for me even considering that my program content of choice (loud classic rock and roll) is really not what AR had in mind when designing these speakers. Perhaps this opinion somewhat reflects the diminished capabilities of my abused 57 year old ears. Having said that, I also enjoy the 4x tremendously and still have my 1971 era bought-new 2ax's. I have recently discovered the 2x (later iteration) and consider it one of the greatest speaker bargains out there. Sounds like a 4x on steroids.

Your 2ax's are a great jumping-in place, and may be all you'll ever need. Performance increases over the 2ax are there for sure, but are not usually linear vs. cost increases. Just make sure they're up to snuff electronically and mechanically.

The early '70's Marantz receivers are a great choice for 2ax's; any of the 2230-2245-2270 series will drive your 2ax's nicely. Given their capacitance coupling, they have a very warm and tube-like quality.Two caveats: don't go with the "B" versions, just the original with no suffix and don't think about driving any 4 ohm AR with the 2270 (2230 and 2245 do fine). It will do great for your 2ax's but falls flat when confronted with a 4 ohm load. The 2270 is usually much pricier than the 2230 and at least to my mind is not worth the difference they bring on eBay.

Joe's Adcom recommendation is spot on also if your setup requires more power; I also power a pair of 3a's with a GFA-5400 and it's sound nirvana for me. But in smaller rooms I've also powered 3a's with one of my 2230's with satisfying results. The 2230/4x combination is really something in a small room.

Sorry for the ramble but hope you enjoy your new speakers.

Good luck,

Ed

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Hi Frank;

I wrote a year or so ago about an, Audio Magazine KEF-107, speaker system review, of many years ago.

It was a 20+ page long review, and very thorough.

I love the AR-4X's for their good value versus sound.

I used an AR amplifier to run them for years.

They could go loud, I liked things loud then.

This KEF-107 review was a difficult test, because of the low powered amplifiers available.

They had found previously, that some speaker system were very demanding of existing amplifiers.

They now used a custom 5,000 watt per channel custom amplifier, name and manufacturer not identified, for this review.

They started off testing the bass and went up to the treble.

They did say it was loud, but they ran out of power in the treble area.

This is grossly overdoing it, but the more clean, as in, undistorted wattage reserve available from 20 - 20,000hz, the better.

Obviously, it would appear, that a Phase Linear 700 or B is overkill for AR-4X's, or is it.

Excluding dragging the stylus across a record, flicking the needle tip, boosting the bass, etc..

I have not heard this pair together, but, it would make for an interesting listen.

This would not be an overkill for the AR-3A's or the AR-LST's, which may need even more power reserve.

Now that I have written this, you can still enjoy these with a more affordable and readily available smaller amplifier/receiver.

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Guest ed426

Not sure this posted the first time but if it did, sorry guys, here it is again.

Hi guys, I was about to post a question like Bruce's regarding the LST and the AR9.

Back in the early 70's I owned two sets of 3a, wanted to go quadraphonic, remember that, of which I fell in love with once hearing them. Listening to crap prior to hearing the 3a was an experience not forgotten. I loved them.

Went to the audio show in 1974 and heard the LST. I had to have them. Sold my two sets of 3a’s plus with additional money I ordered a set of LST. The dealer screwed me; no speakers and no money back. Got out of audio at this time.

Anyway, the last I heard were the LSTs. Coming to this group several years ago someone turned me on to the AR9. The specs as compared to the LST were enough to convince me that this was a better speaker but, I never had a chance to hear them. And as time goes on I believe what Joe said that personal preference has a lot to do with it.

I heard several of you LST owners out there state your preference; what about the AR9 guys?

I have recently posted my thoughts of building a set of LSTs. I can’t afford the prices they are calling for on the market so am thinking of building them for myself. Then I think of the AR9; there are fewer drivers, it is a better speaker but it is a big heavy bulky piece of furniture.

There are AR9 owners out there that I am sure have also hear the LST; please, how do you guys compare them and which do you like better. Again like Joe said, preference.

One thing that puzzles me is that if the 9 is a better speaker than the LST, then why are the 9’s nearly 1/3 the price on the market?

Also, I hear quite often of those that own Marantz & Adcom amps, I know you don’t get much better than that, can someone tell my how Crown compares as an amp? I always liked Crown from the 70’s and find that the old stuff is affordable today.

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Guest leopoldstotch

Wow I sure have gotten alot of great responses so far. Well I have just recently purchased on ebay a Sansui 8080DB, haven't received it yet but should in a few days! I have noticed alot of you mentioned Marantz receivers, well I happen to have one purchased off of ebay, the 2330B. However the right channel doesn't work I just need to get it in for repair. As far as my 2ax's go I like the sound they have but I know my current receiver a Sony Av23 just doesn't cut it.

I remember when I was a young boy (I'm almost 38)my uncle owned a pair of AR-2ax's and damn did they sound fantastic but I believe he had a fisher receiver pushing those speakers. I have memories of a siler faced receiver with no top and orange tubes when it was on and it's that sound I'm trying to replicate or come very close to.

I guess I'm just going to have to start collecting AR speakers and I just may purchase a pair of AR3's or AR-3a. It sounds like I can't go wrong with either one. Thanks for the replys so far and plese keep the receiver/speaker suggestions comming!

Bruce

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Hi there;

Responses may be slow due to the holidays and heatwaves.

I am surprised, that after Frank and I both said AR-LST's, that no AR-9 owners stepped up to plate.

From all the writing by owners, that I have read here, AR-9's appear to be a better sounding speaker system, particularly in the bass.

Because of the time period I was out of hifi, I can only guess that the AR-9's came out after the LST's.

If someone said, AR-6's or AR-7's, I would not be surprised either.

Whatever makes you happy.

Especially, if you own them and aren't paying down a horrific financial charge, after buying a new highend speaker system.

When I first had AR-4X's, I thought that hifi doesn't get any better than that.

This is a while ago.

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What a fun discussion to follow! Some rambling comments. Going back a while my exposure to AR's were my brother's 10pi's driven by a PL 700B. I had Allison Ones driven by a PL400. I prefered the Allisons of course while my brother liked the AR's. I "upgraded" to PL700 Series II which was a piece of crap. To Phase Linear's credit they did replace it at no charge but I was so disgusted with PL that I sold it immediately. My brother's 700B ran for many years before he started having problems and eventually dumped it. He still regrets it to this day though, I think.

My brother still has his original 10pi's plus two pairs of LST's he came across cheap. I sold my Allisons after eight years and regretted it but was lucky enough to find another pair dirt cheap a couple of years ago and don't think I'll make the mistake of parting with them again. I also have a pair of AR9ls that I refurbed and did the LSi upgrade to and the bass is the best I've heard from a speaker. It goes lower and is more powerful than even the Allison Ones but I prefer the overall response of the Allison's.

As for amplification, A Hafler DH500 has plenty of power for AR3's, 10pi's, LST's and Allisons. The amps are also dependable and can be had for around $300 if you shop. For a smooth, good sounding and reliable 255wpc I think that is a bargain. So which AR is the best. . .(Allison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and don't shoot!

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The AR-9 is a remarkable speaker, both sonically and historically. It has some advantages over the LST. There are fewer high frequency drivers, thus comb filtering and phase distortion are significantly reduced. Also, the high frequency drivers are aligned vertically in the center of the cabinet. This greatly improves imaging. The side firing woofers are an interesting concept, however your room needs to be rather live for this to work properly. I tend to prefer the sound of a front firing woofer, it seems to have more immediacy and detail.

The AR-3 and 3a (or any AR speaker with offset high frequency devices) could have been even better if the drivers were vertically aligned. The offset mids and tweets really make them difficult to position in a small room. The problem goes away in a large room. If you have the speakers placed 10-15 feet apart you are no longer hearing each individual driver in the cabinet, but hearing the speaker as a whole (one point source). The closer you get to them, and the closer they get to each other, the more of each driver you hear, and the less you hear of the speaker system as a whole. I think this is why modern audiophiles don’t like AR speakers. They don’t know how to properly place them. Most audiophile speakers today (I write for a magazine, I have listened to A TON of them) are almost plug and play. No level controls, either vertically aligned drivers or mirror imaged for Stereophonic systems. For the most part, you sit these down in your room 4-6 feet apart firing straight ahead, make sure they are in the same plane, and your done! Oh wait, MAYBE you might have to toe them in a bit due to room reflections. That’s it!

When I set up AR speakers, I go through a slightly different process. Here is my process for setting up the AR-3 for use in a stereophonic hifi system. They will be placed on stands vertically with the woofer at the bottom.

First, I will place the speakers right next to each other in the middle of the room on their stands. Next, I turn down the mid and tweeter level controls on both speakers all the way. Then I mute one of the speakers completely using a switch on my preamp, or you can just use the balance control. I will listen to just the woofer in the one speaker, and get a feel for its frequency content. Next, I will raise the midrange level control until there is a good relationship between the midrange driver and the woofer. I will then listen to that for a moment, to once again get a feel for what is going on. Next, I will raise the level of the tweeter control until it integrates with the midrange driver and the woofer. Then I listen to the entire system and if necessary, make any adjustments to the level controls. This process is repeated for the second speaker. Once I am finished with the second speaker, I play them both, switching back and forth (making tweeter and mid adjustments as necessary) to make sure that they both sound exactly the same. After this is complete, I place them in the room. I like them around 7-10 feet apart in my room. I have them placed vertically on 12” stands with isolation points on the bottom (http://www.racksandstands.com/Wood-Technology-FGH-12E-FGH-12O-WT0076.html). Once they are placed, I measure the distance from the wall to make sure that they are both in the same plane. I like them out from the wall about 4-5 feet. I also make sure that my listening position is directly in the center of the two speakers. Now I finally get a chance to sit down! I will play a known recording, preferably one with a good vocal that sits right in the phantom center. If the vocal is not right in the center of the two speakers, the hard part begins. Toeing in AR speakers is very difficult for the following reasons. Due to the offset high frequency devices, as we toe the speakers in the driver alignment changes. If we toe in the left speaker, the tweeter is sticking out a bit, and the midrange driver is back a bit. When we toe in the right speaker, the midrange driver is sticking out a bit, and the tweeter is back a bit. Since we are never going to achieve perfect time alignment between the high frequency drivers left and right, we need to find a place where they are out of phase yet musically consonant.

NOTE:

Please remember that phase is a measure of TIME not to be confused with polarity, which is absolute. Phase is commonly referred to when the person speaking actually means polarity. You can invert polarity, but not phase! If anyone can find away to invert phase, please let me know immediately! If I could go back in time, I would call AR and place a very large order!

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Hi Joe;

Great write-up, Pete, as usual.

When I think back a few decades ago, I remember making a really, really big mistake.

When I owned a pair of AR-4X's, which I already stated, were the greatest speakers going, I went out and listened some more at different stereo stores at what else was available, big mistake.

I got bit by the hifi bug, big time.

My meaning is, there was way better speakers out there, now I was disappointed in what I owned, I wanted bigger and supposedly better sounding speakers.

This went on and on with each purchase.

One writer here said, he hasn't even heard the AR-LST's.

Maybe he is better off, never listening to them.

Then he would not desire a very difficult and expensive speaker to buy today.

The situation would be different and so would my advice be if they were still being made today.

I looked at an ebay auction earlier today that has ended.

The bids were from Germany, Japan, Taiwan and Korea.

If someone there has a large disposable income, everything of AR and other classic speakers will be exported.

I can guess that there is pensioners, blue collar workers, as well as more financially comfortable members, etc, able to buy a dream they have, or a pair, or even stacked.

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Insight into the company's thoughts on their designs can be seen in how they represent their products - just look for this quote in the AR product literature, and fill in the appropriate space: "The (blank) is the best speaker system we know how to make". How many times did AR make this statement, and how many different models were represented?

Differences between the LST and the AR-9 are evident, mostly due to differences in their ascribed purposes.

The LST was a logical extension of the AR-3a concept, but with better power handling, increased spl capability, and wider overall dispersion. Remember, its stated purpose was as a *professional* monitor.

The AR-9 was a revolutionary departure from previous AR SOTA technology *for home use*: It was a 4-way system. It utilized a unique bass-reinforcement crossover & driver system (the location of the side-firing woofers was *critical* to LF performance, and was not an arbitrary decision - info can be found in the forum library on this). It vertically aligned its upper-range drivers, and featured a sound-absorption material to control dispersion. It utilized a new dome midrange/semi horn driver - unprecedented in previous AR history. It provided for legitimate bi-amplification, and did away with the problematic variable level controls.

I like the wide presentation of the LST...in stacked format, it is without peer. For most listening, though, I prefer the more natural soundstage thrown by the AR-9 - that, and its superior bass response, make the orginal 9 my pick for best AR speaker.

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7-28-06 10PM

What the hell is going on here? Is my diatribe inspiring ’Senior-Moments’ for some of this site’s members?

Look, it’s like this…

I started getting interested in electric stuff because of my dad who was new is this area in 1927. He collected radios and TV’s at night and worked to build subways here by day, and to always have one working radio from a few non-working ones. But more than that, he always needed a radio and TV that gave the whole world to his growing family of immigrants as a means of communication and more so, current news and events. My dad needed to hear about World War Second because he was of ‘draft-able-age’, so he had an early radio. Before that he lived his life in World War First torn Italy. He didn’t even have any shoes and the schools were bombed-out. He got here, and became a US-Italian, lower financial class citizen. He was obviously smart enough to know that radio waves were the way to go and a way to what was happening in this new world, he was always very political current at the dinner table.

So, he inspired me, but so did my country’s public conscious-ness about electricity as far back as my “American-Flyer” electric trains did in 1957 for me at 7 years old.

FINALLY! (Enough venting! Ah, but there must be more.)

Regarding the AR-9’s. I heard them when first issued at a NYC Hi-Fi salon. (By the way do you guys know, that the words “Hi-Fi” are not even in a new dictionary anymore?)

To me the obvious was more than so. Honestly they sounded as if I had stacked 3a’s, looking back, how could you not regarding these antiques if you will. “AR” had this new way of sending sound to my young ears with simply a ‘dome’ that was missing a cone around it. I read the ‘white papers’ the blue type and all test reports. Direct ‘dome–radiators’ proved that they could convey sound better in the mid and especially high frequency ranges with out a cone attached. Hence forth to me that 8 inch lower mid was great sounding in the AR-9, but made me wonder about my AR-3a mid -domes at home, in that my compared learning experiences all before that proved that a ‘dome’ sounded better over-all to my clean and young ears.

In closing, sure if I could find, afford and had the space, I’d be a AR-9 believer, but I’m probably more happy listening to my ‘stacked’ LST’s. After all they too have double AR-3a woofers per side in my system and what more is there in life?

Let me get back to my vinyl, my CDs and my tapes, 10 inch and cassette and I’ll be forever more happy as things go for me.

In closing; ‘back in the day’ my peers thought I was weird because I believed in AR’s dome radiators and small boxes compared to my peers big boxes and paper-rolled woofers and high efficiency drivers. It was the same about my ‘long-hair’ a few years prior to that. Screw it, now I have no hair, but my 3a’s and LST’s are still here after all these years, with me as long as I support them, they will love me back, just like anything else in this life.

Your friend and mine, Frank Marsi*

*An, Ed Vilchur ‘throw-back’ and cult member. I can just see the ‘authorities’ sending in tanks and destroying my stacked LST’s and 3a’s on my head.

FM

P.S.1 I may be ‘paranoid’, but there’s a very popular contributor to a very popular magazine who I believe is reading this site’s pages, Michael, you know who you are. I say that because in next month’s issue of that magazine, I feel he is almost para-phrasing my usual utterings to open one of his reviews.

Personally, if that magazine is curious or even mildly interested in AR’s contributions they should do more articles on AR vintage products and then give me a sizable income on-staff at their publication, I’ll gladly conform to their requirements reviewing and recounting vintage gear and moments in its history. But unfortunately they choose to review only outrageously priced gear that only a few financially well-off citizens can afford. This magazine has always had an elitist’s attitude as they only review the ‘Kings’ equipment and do not cater to us historians who have tastes in some of the best equipment ever designed and manufactured. Poo-poo on them!

P.S.2 We should all rent a hall and have dinner with “Mark Levinson”, as he has lovingly so continued AR’s great legacy as long as anyone could have with his version of the LST and his “Grand” what-ever towers, which are still available, do a web-search and learn of his efforts. If anyone of us had his versions, we’d be very grateful persons indeed!

Frank Marsi

Copyright 7-06

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>P.S.1 I may be ‘paranoid’, but there’s a very popular

>contributor to a very popular magazine who I believe is

>reading this site’s pages, Michael, you know who you are. I

>say that because in next month’s issue of that magazine, I

>feel he is almost para-phrasing my usual utterings to open one

>of his reviews.

>Personally, if that magazine is curious or even mildly

>interested in AR’s contributions they should do more articles

>on AR vintage products and then give me a sizable income

>on-staff at their publication, I’ll gladly conform to their

>requirements reviewing and recounting vintage gear and moments

>in its history. But unfortunately they choose to review only

>outrageously priced gear that only a few financially well-off

>citizens can afford. This magazine has always had an elitist’s

>attitude as they only review the ‘Kings’ equipment and do not

>cater to us historians who have tastes in some of the best

>equipment ever designed and manufactured. Poo-poo on them!

>

If you are thinking of the same Mike that I am, he is an audio enthusiast just like we are. He had AR-3a's back in the day too! Even though I don't write for the same publication as he does, I would gladly sit down and talk with him about AR speakers, analog or anything audio. If we are indeed talking about the same Mike, he knows how he can get in touch with me. He is welcome (as is everyone) to use the information I have provided here, however I do ask that a proper credit is given where due. Mike and I are both professionals, plagiarism is not necessary. The hifi industry is small, and there is no reason we should treat anyone with disrespect.

With that said, you should read TONE-Audio! www.tonepublications.com. TONE reviews gear in all price ranges. We are dedicated to putting the fun back in audio, and all of our writers have a great sense of humor and it really shows in our writing. I will have writing published in upcoming issues.

You should also read TAS, Stereophile, HiFi+ and any other audio magazine that is out there. There is a lot of good information out there, and you should soak up as much of it as you can. Plus I like drooling over the super expensive stuff!! Especially turntables!!!!!

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>Hi Frank;

>

>I wrote a year or so ago about an, Audio Magazine KEF-107,

>speaker system review, of many years ago.

>

>It was a 20+ page long review, and very thorough.

>

>I love the AR-4X's for their good value versus sound.

>

>I used an AR amplifier to run them for years.

>

>They could go loud, I liked things loud then.

>

>This KEF-107 review was a difficult test, because of the low

>powered amplifiers available.

>

>They had found previously, that some speaker system were very

>demanding of existing amplifiers.

>

>They now used a custom 5,000 watt per channel custom

>amplifier, name and manufacturer not identified, for this

>review.

>

>They started off testing the bass and went up to the treble.

>

>They did say it was loud, but they ran out of power in the

>treble area.

>

>This is grossly overdoing it, but the more clean, as in,

>undistorted wattage reserve available from 20 - 20,000hz, the

>better.

>

>Obviously, it would appear, that a Phase Linear 700 or B is

>overkill for AR-4X's, or is it.

>

>Excluding dragging the stylus across a record, flicking the

>needle tip, boosting the bass, etc..

>

>I have not heard this pair together, but, it would make for an

>interesting listen.

>

>This would not be an overkill for the AR-3A's or the AR-LST's,

>which may need even more power reserve.

>

>Now that I have written this, you can still enjoy these with a

>more affordable and readily available smaller

>amplifier/receiver.

V..E..R..N.. 5000 watts, no, not like this! Why?

I twice worked on an all tube, 700 watt PA amp that supplied volumes of power on board a WW2 800 foot US Navy aircraft carrier. We didn't need 5000 watts f..o..r that!

For me, it must be the "Elmers" rubber cement I use to keep my constantly decaying surrounds from falling apart! It works, but it's giving me brain damage.FM

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So as not to disappoint Vern;

The AR-9 is probably the "best" of AR's speakers.

Unless you like the LST better which I can easily see how you might, although I could point-out a flaw in an LST that once you heard it, you'd have trouble believing they were spectacular. But then, I can do that with the 9, too. But they are *different* problems.

In fact, the 9 has a fault that drives me up a wall. But the rest of it is soooo good that I'll live with it.

The 3a has much the same problems as the LST, but not quite the same. So the 3a might be the best, too. Between the LST and a 3a in a live room I'll take the 3a.

But then the 3. . . the 3 was really nice and depending on where you sat was better, maybe, than a 3a. . . so maybe the 3 was best.

But then, the 10pi certainly has its strong-points, being more 3a-ish than a 3a in a lot of respects, and more like an LST in others, but without all those drivers firing everywhere. . . so that's probably AR's best speaker. . . the 10pi.

On the other hand, at a low listening volume the 2ax "feels" more "flat" than even a 3a and it's easier to push so. . .

Well, you get the point. Who's listening, and in what room, and to what, at what volume, using what "front-end?" All these things have bearing as to what someone might consider "best."

The 9 was the "best" that AR knew how to build years after the LST was the best AR knew how to build. They didn't go backward, but still traded one set of troubles for another.

Modern manufacturers are still doing that.

Bret

PS - The 9 is expensive to restore and very expensive to ship. It is imposing in its appearance, very low wife-acceptance-factor, and doesn't have the three nifty faces and cool-retro look of an LST. For all those reasons the LST sells for more used.

In my opinion, the "transparency" and "detail" of the 9 is without question superior to that of the LST. But the LST does do a wicked room-fill that the 9 cannot match.

Just my opinion of course. And we all know about the rarity and value of opinions.

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Hi Bret;

Great write-up as usual.

I will refer everyone to the Crown audio site to read their power recommendations, which I also mentioned in, the "other forum", under fast blow fuses.

I did not invent the need for clean power, 1,000 watts and up.

This is far more than the typical 25 watt minimum that we were told for most of the classic speakers.

As well, if I remember correctly, there would be no improvement if the AR-1 or AR-3 had more than about 5 damping factor amplifier.

My 25 years with a pair of AR-3A's, AR amplifier, AR Tuner, and AR turntable would make me a fan of AR.

My living room for 35 years was about 8 1/2' high x 15'x 14' ballpark.

Without having heard the LST's outside of a store, I hussled a pair into my living room for a weekend in 1974.

They are heavy.

After a fraction of a minute, I gave twice the dollar value for them over the AR-3A's.

I had a poor WAF then, and they only stayed for the weekend.

Didn't matter how much I pouted, it didn't work. lol

That demo was with the AR amp.

Suffice to say, I was hooked for another 20 years with that memory, but I did have the AR-3A's to live with until the dreaded foam rot.

I only have a Crown DC-300A and Double Dyna 400 to use and there is a terrific woofer control with either one over the AR amp.

I am going to stretch it a little, it is like the difference in a Dynaco SCA-35 and an AR amp.

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>What a fun discussion to follow! Some rambling comments.

>Going back a while my exposure to AR's were my brother's

>10pi's driven by a PL 700B. I had Allison Ones driven by a

>PL400. I prefered the Allisons of course while my brother

>liked the AR's. I "upgraded" to PL700 Series II

>which was a piece of crap. To Phase Linear's credit they did

>replace it at no charge but I was so disgusted with PL that I

>sold it immediately. My brother's 700B ran for many years

>before he started having problems and eventually dumped it.

>He still regrets it to this day though, I think.

>

>My brother still has his original 10pi's plus two pairs of

>LST's he came across cheap. I sold my Allisons after eight

>years and regretted it but was lucky enough to find another

>pair dirt cheap a couple of years ago and don't think I'll

>make the mistake of parting with them again. I also have a

>pair of AR9ls that I refurbed and did the LSi upgrade to and

>the bass is the best I've heard from a speaker. It goes lower

>and is more powerful than even the Allison Ones but I prefer

>the overall response of the Allison's.

>

>As for amplification, A Hafler DH500 has plenty of power for

>AR3's, 10pi's, LST's and Allisons. The amps are also

>dependable and can be had for around $300 if you shop. For a

>smooth, good sounding and reliable 255wpc I think that is a

>bargain. So which AR is the best. . .(Allison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

>and don't shoot!

7-27-06

Your realize of course Dave S. that after reading your Phase Linear/Acoustic Research comment, I’ve got a ‘raised eyebrow’ and I’m keeping that comment ‘in my back pocket’ for future use. I’ll not be venomous, nor ‘flamming’. But let me settle down first, I just got home, I gotta lose that NYC edge of fear and violence first.

O.K., I’m alright now.

Yes just like anything in this world of machines that man has invented, there will be good and bad. I myself can imagine that after manufacturing tens of thousands of units any man made product must have a failure rate and or defected number of issues from the factory.

The PL700’s are at this late date of after over 30 years, known to be ‘cranky’ and troublesome as they were back then for some, and more so than the PL400’s.

To me Phase Linear components are a close approximation to the American automobile’s approach in the last 40 or so years, bigger is better and we’ve got the resources to make it!

I, after the late sixties and especially the early 70’s I have regretfully forgotten even my most basic electricity. My ears are still functioning though, so ‘Back-Off’ any of you guys looking to butt-in now! Wait your turn.

PL used circuitry and component choices that can easily leave a techie asking why?

Un-Related Example One: I bought a 1973 ‘Riv’ with 120 thou. on the clock, in1984. I re-did the rubber and upper control-arm bushings in the front-end, shocks, idler-arm, etc. Rebuilt the 4 barrel myself, and ran it for another 10 years, six to seven days a week to get me in and out of Manhattan from S.I., plus driving around for many more miles looking for a free spot on the street. I can’t begin to tell you I put another 125 thou. on it, and only sub-freezing temps one day killed it in ’94, I never did change that oil the last time. Ehh.. you see were this is going here?

I had a PL400 since new in ’74, it sounded great until I apparently learned how to abuse it. It got going again for another 10 years after that, and then one day ‘caput’! It had all the wrong ‘trannies’ in it. Actually the fault of prior repair indiscretions and not the its design characteristics. I later bought another 4 and in terms of price versus quality and flat-out guts and brawn, its prices were certainly fair back then, and more so today.

Here’s another ridiculous and pointless comparison. When I used to occasionally bring my AR-3a’s to my friends apartment to compare his ‘so-what’, JBL Century L100’s, I was so embarrassed when we both took off our respective grille cloths, and I don’t mean in a funny way, I was mortified. To see his perfectly manufactured and clean looking drivers and cabinets made me cringe. My 3a’s looked like they were made in some ones’ basement or garage in terms of the drivers. That freak’in plastic tape, the frail wires and shit. Damn, his went so much louder with and much less power, were so much brighter, mine had as he said; “ a blanket over them!” My goodness, what a bad feeling to realize it was almost true! He even blew my tweeters on one occasion with his Marantz 2325 reciever of only 125 RMS a side. That occasion meant I would never do a ‘comparison-session’ again. After a year or so he claimed he was not enjoying the brightness and then, one after another he bought AR-11’s, Allison 1’s then Thiel 3.5’s, which to me sound like strong, loud, AR-2ax’s, on steroids.

Me, I still have my original 3a’s, my LST’s, and PL’s. Holy mollie! I still got my ‘Dyna’ stuff, Fender ’68 Bassman amp, “Hofner” “Beatle- bass”, my cars, and my photos of almost all of my past girlfriends. Pardon me, my head feels dizzy, on my, I’ve got gas, no, that’s my leaky foam surrounds again. I better get the rubber glue, oh my, it’s working.

NEWS FLASH!!!

Today a man in his late 50’s was found running through the streets of midtown Manhattan wearing a metal object on his head, and we quote from on-lookers: “appearing to be an inverted speaker woofer ‘thingie’ of some type, with no foam surround visible”. Being in the vicinity of the “Empire State Building”, officials were baffled (no pun intended), and concerned. Police were also concerned about his deep 30 hertz, almost ‘primal’ moaning of what sounded like, “four-ohm..” repeatedly, “four-ohm”, perhaps profiling him as using a terrorist’s coded language.* (Editor’s Note, We can’t be too careful here in NY”) Was it a “Utah” basket or merely an “Electro-Voice” full-range, experts are still questioning from what decade or era has this man came from.

On-lookers claimed he was screaming about the past and how “things used to be better”, “ How Old Shit Is Good Shit”, as he wore his almost helmet-like contraption gazing up towards the symbol of N.Y., The Empire State Building”. He also screamed: “Why is that, that building only took a year and a half to build, but yet my LST’s are still in disrepair?”. “It’s my own fault!”.

The ‘purp’ was whisked away by police who claimed he was wearing many “some sort of weird one and one half inch glass electronic, fast blow AGC fuses in multiple body-piecing projectile fashion” while he was screaming “ AR Lives”, and “Domes Prevail”.

Some on looking pedestrians were amazed and went about their usual drudgery along with the sick, ‘bottom-less pit’ feeling of knowing that this man could be right, or was his dialog so obscure that even knowledgable people would feel unsettled?

The man was later identified as a vintage speaker freak and brought to Radio Shack to settle down, where he realized life is short, and why bother buying new shit when these days old shit is so much better.

P.S. I still don’t see where I’m going here either, but I’ll just go back to listening tonite and leave you guys be. If aliens came down and wanted a cross-section of music from the last few decades and more, they’d come here. Then they’d steal my system.

Frank Marsi, Copyright 7-06

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Guest SherwoodFool

Hi,

I could not resist responding. When I came really of age(& had money for a real system) in my crew, the only speakers that were considered were the KLH-6, AR-2ax, Advent Large and Dyna A-25. Everybody drolled over AR3a's(remember that AR listening room in Grand Central?) but nobody could afford that($300ea)!! But the eletronics were always set- The Dynaco Trio: PAT-4,FM-5 or AF-6, Stereo 120( + an AR turntable w Shure V-15 Mk II, of course). I broke ranks and bought a receiver (blasphemous), Sherwood S-7300(52wts/ch), a changer(heretical), Dual 1228 w ADC XLM. But the real kicker was I got Teak Ar-5's. At the time, I was convinced I could hear the difference. Now I am convinced, it was the best choice as I really don't think any of us could truly tell. Good speakers in group like this are truly subtle. But also, this probably your first exposure to 2 cubic ft. sealed box(acoustic suspension) enclosures. Even I could tell the difference between them and conquerable ported boxes & didn't like them.

Ah, but you are into electronics.In addition to the above, consider these: Dynaco SCA-80(40wts/ch)DynaQuad, Sherwood S-7244 2ch/4ch(45/90wts). I have 2ax's & 4's now; I own all and have tried. All the Dyna's show up regularly quite reasonably priced on EBay & 99.9% of persons on this site have had or built them (I still have mine). The Sherwoods are fairly rare but not too costly when found. The only other recommendations are amps or receivers based on Heathkit Ar-1500 which the really cool guys built instead of the Dyna's.

BTW, how does your current amp perform & sound? Remember a good amp should sound like nothing & only just provide adequate power for your preferred listening level.

Anyway, Happy Music & Enjoy.

Regards,

Russ(SherwoodFool)

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Bruce,

Have driven my 2ax's with Pioneer SX-980/780/838 and with a Sansui 9090DB. All sounded great but the 9090DB had more oomph. Your 8080DB should do a nice job. One thing that you might try is to get a pair of 4x's and stack them on the 2ax's. They really compliment each other. Am currently running a stack with a Yamaha R-9 and really like it. For the bucks it really sounds nice. And are easier on the wallet. A pair of 4x's and 2ax's cost me less than the price for a single 3a. While it may not compare to the 9/3a/LST models, since you already have the 2ax give it a try.

James

That's just my 2 drops of sweat worth of opinion. Need the 2 cents worth to help pay the A/C bill down here in hot, humid SoCal LOL.

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