AR-6 Unfinished Pine orphaned pair arrived today

[JKent]

The white glue "WD" sold by MSound and some others is very easy to work with and very forgiving. Our friend RoyC has refoamed and otherwise repaired LOTS of speakers so although he's a hobbyist I consider him a pro in this area. He uses Aleene's even though he could buy the WD in bulk if he wanted to. That's good enough for me.

-Kent

[owlsplace]

...

Let it dry thoroughly. If it seems soft from the crumpling you can apply a thinned coat of water-based woofer foam adhesive. Aleene's Tacky glue may also work, but thinned.

-Kent

I wonder if the original sizing was a starch? That would account for the ability to soften it again with water.

Roger

[djcheung]

Here is a tweeter I worked on last year by piercing a hole in the middle and then use a bend paper clip to push/pull it out from inside and then sealing the hole with a tiny bit of white glue.

Not perfect but much better than before.

[owlsplace]

The white glue "WD" sold by MSound and some others is very easy to work with and very forgiving. Our friend RoyC has refoamed and otherwise repaired LOTS of speakers so although he's a hobbyist I consider him a pro in this area. He uses Aleene's even though he could buy the WD in bulk if he wanted to. That's good enough for me.

-Kent

Yep.I agree.

Here is a tweeter I worked on last year by piercing a hole in the middle and then use a bend paper clip to push/pull it out from inside and then sealing the hole with a tiny bit of white glue.

Not perfect but much better than before.

Looks pretty good.

Update on the AR-6's: Replaced the cap in the other xover today. The original wax cap was floating around inside the cabinet as the staples weren't set deep enough or maybe the seller popped them loose playing Hendrix at high SPLs The old cap measured 11.5MFD but I don't have any way to measure the ESR.

The woofer basket had white chalk bloom on it so I cleaned it with vinegar. Took a look at the magnet and voice coil to make sure nothing was going on there -- no surprises. Didn't pull the pot since the other one was fine. Cut the dust caps off the woofers so just waiting for the replacement surrounds.

Probably have them up and running by the weekend

Roger

[ra.ra]

Roger, your progress looks good, and I think you have a real nice pair of speakers there. IMO, this restoration is turning out to be somewhat unique, however, since this is the first time I have ever heard of the original pots requiring no restoration effort or replacement.

Just wanted to urge you to try to save and re-use the flat dust caps if possible, See attached pics.

[owlsplace]

Roger, your progress looks good, and I think you have a real nice pair of speakers there. IMO, this restoration is turning out to be somewhat unique, however, since this is the first time I have ever heard of the original pots requiring no restoration effort or replacement.

Just wanted to urge you to try to save and re-use the flat dust caps if possible, See attached pics.

flat dust cap re-use.jpg

I thought I took some photos of the pot but I guess I got distracted. The silver plate had the usually gray-blue oxidation or tarnish that occurs over time but the contact areas were bright and shiny so I cleaned off the tarnish with Simichrome polish and swabbed on some contact cleaner. Looked brand new.

Yes, original dust caps are priority #1.

Just curious if everyone is reattaching these with Aleene's or similar pva glue?

Roger

[ra.ra]

I've done 2-1/2 pairs of these flat cap woofers, with another pair on deck, and they've all been essentially the same. The cap material appears to be something between a stiff felted paper and a light cardboard, maybe 1/16" thick. I use a fresh #11 x-acto blade and try to make the cut about 1/8" inside its outer diameter where it abuts the cone, keeping the blade angled somewhat parallel to the cone surface. This allows for a wedge-like fit of the replaced cap, and keeps it from falling through the newly cut hole when replaced. Instead of flapping it back with a hinge, I prefer to remove the cut portion of dust cap when shimming, but first making a pencil mark (see first pic, post 30) to ensure proper alignment.

The dust cap material is very absorbent, and I think any of the common white glues will work well. For surround attachment, I used the stuff from MSound (as Kent noted, very forgiving), but for the dust caps, I think I used Elmer's as I like that it dries to a more matte finish than some other white glues.

[owlsplace]

I've done 2-1/2 pairs of these flat cap woofers, with another pair on deck, and they've all been essentially the same. The cap material appears to be something between a stiff felted paper and a light cardboard, maybe 1/16" thick. I use a fresh #11 x-acto blade and try to make the cut about 1/8" inside its outer diameter where it abuts the cone, keeping the blade angled somewhat parallel to the cone surface. This allows for a wedge-like fit of the replaced cap, and keeps it from falling through the newly cut hole when replaced. Instead of flapping it back with a hinge, I prefer to remove the cut portion of dust cap when shimming, but first making a pencil mark (see first pic, post 30) to ensure proper alignment.

The dust cap material is very absorbent, and I think any of the common white glues will work well. For surround attachment, I used the stuff from MSound (as Kent noted, very forgiving), but for the dust caps, I think I used Elmer's as I like that it dries to a more matte finish than some other white glues.

Pretty much what I did to get the caps off although I used a Sharpie fine point and cut just inside the existing cement.

UPDATE 3/4/15; 4PM: Surrounds arrived

Roger

[owlsplace]

Woofers foamed and cabs back together. Will give them overnight to dry. Gave the cabs a quick sand with 320 grit just so I would have to change my clothes

Wasn't too fond of McPeak's foam. They are a bit on the stiff side. Gave the cones a coat of Mod Podge. Put some on the tweeter dome also but it is not quite perfect. Will see how it sounds tomorrow.

Roger

[JKent]

I'm pretty sure all the foam comes from one supplier in China.

[owlsplace]

I'm pretty sure all the foam comes from one supplier in China.

Sounds ominous! Back to cloth

[ra.ra]

I have no idea who/where is actually manufacturing these foams, but I have tried both 8" foams offered by John at MSound that I believe were tested and recommended by RoyC in this forum. (Roy: if this recollection is incorrect, please do correct me.) Looking back on my packing slips, I am only able to uncover half of the specific information. One type is item number SF-810 and called 8" JBL/Bose/Infinity surround, but I cannot locate McPeak's particular ID on the second type.

I certainly do not know how to test or compare these flimsy foams, which is exactly why I rely on more experienced and knowledgeable advice and guidance here. Still, based on my untrained listening experience, I am very much pleased with the performance of both of these products. That said, actually installing the two foam products provided very different experiences. The SF-810 product was reasonably cooperative while installing, but the second foam type required considerably more attention. Sometimes, newly installed foams do seem to feel a bit "tight" initially after the glue sets up, but not unlike any good party, a little rock'n'roll will loosen the situation.

Roger, I've been with you all the way on these AR-6's, but when you've got some of the original AR-6 woofers, I'm not sure why you felt compelled to add mass to the cones with Mod-Podge. I seem to recall that stuff is sort of a matte gel substance. Attached is a pic of both MSound 8" foams - - the SF-810 is on the damaged AR-7 woofer on the left.

[owlsplace]

.... Sometimes, newly installed foams do seem to feel a bit "tight" initially after the glue sets up, but not unlike any good party, a little rock'n'roll will loosen the situation.

Roger, I've been with you all the way on these AR-6's, but when you've got some of the original AR-6 woofers, I'm not sure why you felt compelled to add mass to the cones with Mod-Podge. I seem to recall that stuff is sort of a matte gel substance. Attached is a pic of both MSound 8" foams - - the SF-810 is on the damaged AR-7 woofer on the left.

M Sound foams.jpg

By original woofers, you mean with the ribbed cones? The mass is insignificant compared to the added resistance of a stiff surround on the woofer. I was more worried about adding mass to the tweeter. We'll see how it goes. Watered down pva glue, like Mod Podge, is often used to reinforce old cones. These are "potty" speakers anyway, as they say "down under."

Roger

[ra.ra]

Oops, when I wrote "original", I probably should have said "earliest", meaning alnico magnets and ribbed cones. You are probably correct about the insignificance of added mass, but I'm not sure why cone reinforcement was ever desired. And, despite my often-failed attempts at introducing some lightness in these threads, I like to steer clear from all "potty" humor. Your AR-6 speakers will be more-than-fine, even excellent I predict, and I think you will find that after a bit of air time, the "stiff" surrounds will loosen up to your liking.

[owlsplace]

Oops, when I wrote "original", I probably should have said "earliest", meaning alnico magnets and ribbed cones. You are probably correct about the insignificance of added mass, but I'm not sure why cone reinforcement was ever desired. And, despite my often-failed attempts at introducing some lightness in these threads, I like to steer clear from all "potty" humor. Your AR-6 speakers will be more-than-fine, even excellent I predict, and I think you will find that after a bit of air time, the "stiff" surrounds will loosen up to your liking.

As far as I can tell at this early hour they sound great. They are quite a bit more sensitive than the AR-5's so can't really A/B them without adjusting volume. I don't have any Hendrix on hand but I'm sure I can come up with something suitable later in the day

I usually try to skirt the conservation vs preservation debate as I've never seen anything good come of it.

As Carl says, "It's all about the music."

I'm still interested in the possibility of using cloth surrounds if it means gaining a third octave of bass response even though it would be considered a mod on this model. I may track down another set of woofers to satisfy my curiosity if no one else has any experience doing this.

Roger

[ra.ra]

Glad to hear that your first impressions are so positive.

Take a look at this interesting 1972 review of the AR-6 from a UK publication - - it's attached in post 6 of this link (with partial excerpt below), and I think it is exactly your version of this speaker. This article highlights some of the virtues of this particular woofer, and I'd be real surprised if you could get any more low end from this cabinet with another 8" woofer of any kind.

Still, it is fun to experiment and compare. Just recently, I was dismayed to observe some initial cracks and splits beginning to show up in the foam surrounds of my AR-7's. I have disconnected and removed them while awaiting re-foam, and for the interim, I have plopped in a pair of cloth surround AR-4x woofers into the 7 cabinets. Do they sound good? Yep. Do they sound better than with the original foam woofers? Nope. Is there a bigger, deeper low end to the music? Definitely not.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5701

[owlsplace]

Glad to hear that your first impressions are so positive.

Take a look at this interesting 1972 review of the AR-6 from a UK publication - - it's attached in post 6 of this link (with partial excerpt below), and I think it is exactly your version of this speaker. This article highlights some of the virtues of this particular woofer, and I'd be real surprised if you could get any more low end from this cabinet with another 8" woofer of any kind.

Still, it is fun to experiment and compare. Just recently, I was dismayed to observe some initial cracks and splits beginning to show up in the foam surrounds of my AR-7's. I have disconnected and removed them while awaiting re-foam, and for the interim, I have plopped in a pair of cloth surround AR-4x woofers into the 7 cabinets. Do they sound good? Yep. Do they sound better than with the original foam woofers? Nope. Is there a bigger, deeper low end to the music? Definitely not.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5701

AR-6 1972 review.jpg

Good review. They are making my AR-5 tweeters look whimpy.

My reference on the AR-6 was to the new stiff foam I installed. I assume the AR-7's you mention were wearing factory foam. The AR-5 foams from MSound are much thinner than the ones John supplied for the AR-6. He is supplying JBL foams currently for the AR-5 rather than the BA foams. At any rate these are much closer to the original AR foams that I am familiar with. I am still running one AR-5 with the original foam. Just curious to see how long it will go. I still have a cloth surround project in the works.

Roger

[DavidR]

off subject: Roger: are you related to Gov. Bill Weld?

[owlsplace]

off subject: Roger: are you related to Gov. Bill Weld?

Seventh cousin ... almost all the Welds in the US descended from three brothers.

[DavidR]

Cool.

He was a good Governor for the Commonwealth.

[ra.ra]

Off topic.

DavidR: with you and I both being from the Bay State, I chuckled at your query, b/c I posed the very same Q to Roger offline very recently, and I also agree with your assessment about our former chief executive. What's not to like about a governor who keeps chickens in his urban backyard and hosts a Friday night poker game featuring "amber liquid" beverages, and at a crucial press event, dives headlong into the Charles River still with his necktie on in order to promote his clean-up achievements of the commonwealth's waterways?

However, Roger is being modest here - he also has ties to this Hollywood starlet - - - Tuesday Weld (see pic). Uh-oh, this is starting to remind me of TomT's thread about Ann-Margret and her AR-2's.

On topic.

I really like this thread with Roger finding and exploring his new AR-6's. Plus, he has two pairs of AR-5's! Amongst the enormous production volume of AR-4x's, AR-2ax's, and AR-3a's, the 5's and 6's were almost the shy, forgotten step-children of the classic era.

Roger, your comments on the foams are probably apt, but I do want to say that I have no idea how they are "supposed" to feel to the initial touch, and these foams do seem to release and loosen up with some play time. I think the foams you received were the ones that I found more difficult to install, but their performance is excellent after they loosen up a bit.

[JKent]

Back on topic: Roger, I will be very interested to read whatever you post about installing cloth surrounds. To the best of my knowledge none of us here have done that (or at least have not written about it).

As for the stiffness of the foams, this is just a hunch but I sometimes think that when people report that their restored speakers sound better after the "capacitors have burned in" it may have something to do with the foam surrounds limbering up a bit. That and just getting used to the sound. Psychoacoustics (not to be confused with whacko-acoustics) can be interesting.

-Kent

oops. Just noticed ra.ra. made the same point about the foams loosening up. Think I was distracted by Tuesday

[DavidR]

I remember Tuesday Weld.

I'll keep my (positive) comments to myself.

Cool again.

[owlsplace]

Off topic.

DavidR: with you and I both being from the Bay State, I chuckled at your query, b/c I posed the very same Q to Roger offline very recently, and I also agree with your assessment about our former chief executive. What's not to like about a governor who keeps chickens in his urban backyard and hosts a Friday night poker game featuring "amber liquid" beverages, and at a crucial press event, dives headlong into the Charles River still with his necktie on in order to promote his clean-up achievements of the commonwealth's waterways?

However, Roger is being modest here - he also has ties to this Hollywood starlet - - - Tuesday Weld (see pic). Uh-oh, this is starting to remind me of TomT's thread about Ann-Margret and her AR-2's.

On topic.

I really like this thread with Roger finding and exploring his new AR-6's. Plus, he has two pairs of AR-5's! Amongst the enormous production volume of AR-4x's, AR-2ax's, and AR-3a's, the 5's and 6's were almost the shy, forgotten step-children of the classic era.

Roger, your comments on the foams are probably apt, but I do want to say that I have no idea how they are "supposed" to feel to the initial touch, and these foams do seem to release and loosen up with some play time. I think the foams you received were the ones that I found more difficult to install, but their performance is excellent after they loosen up a bit.

tuesday weld.jpg

Ha, ha, ha, I missed all that being out West since 1977. Quite a character

I did send him a congratulations letter when he was elected and advised him to uphold the family tradition. Looks like he did!

Back on topic: Roger, I will be very interested to read whatever you post about installing cloth surrounds. To the best of my knowledge none of us here have done that (or at least have not written about it).

As for the stiffness of the foams, this is just a hunch but I sometimes think that when people report that their restored speakers sound better after the "capacitors have burned in" it may have something to do with the foam surrounds limbering up a bit. That and just getting used to the sound. Psychoacoustics (not to be confused with whacko-acoustics) can be interesting.

-Kent

oops. Just noticed ra.ra. made the same point about the foams loosening up. Think I was distracted by Tuesday

I'm with you on that. I am always amazed after working on these that they can even come close to reproducing accurate sound. I mean a coil of wire, a magnet, a cone and voilà, bring on the magic!

Roger

[owlsplace]

Well, these AR-6's were sitting neglected on the auction site for awhile so I made an offer that wasn't refused

Hope they get packaged well. Looks like one pair of Euro model cabinets. Should be fun.

Roger