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best source for surrounds for AR12" woofer?


michiganpat

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I found a set of AR58S's for a good price locally a few weeks ago, so I quickly snagged them up. they're in good restorable shape, with tight cabinet seams, all the drivers working, and no big chips/gouges/cuts in the veneer. I plan on redoing the crossover caps, recovering the grilles, some restore-a-finish on the beautiful walnut cabs, and of course, refoaming the woofers. are all the different AR 12" kits on the market essentially the same? so far, the kit from myaudioaddiction looks to be the best price, or should I go to Rick Cobb? or the more expensive kits from midwest speaker or simplyspeaker?

The other thing I need to do is try eradicate the cigarette smell in them. they've been airing out in the garage, and from advice on audiokarma, I've wiped them down with thinner, and they're better, but still a bit smelly. if anyone has any other ideas, it would be greatly appreciated.

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I Recently acquired the same speakers. I, like many others here, recommend Msound for AR 11inch woofer parts. Each speaker has five caps in close proximity with little room to work. I recommend getting the units operational and then judging whether a recap is needed. You have noticed by now that the 58s is without mid range and tweeter controls. Unless your listening space is anechoic you will almost certainly need an equalizer to tame the mid range driver as it is used in this AR design. The 58s sounds every bit as good as a 3a once you get it tamed. Take care not to break the cheap connectors on the back. The effort to replace them is much greater than would be expected based on outside appearance..

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Contact for MSound is msound@shentel.net

Tell John your a CSP member. He will sell you a complete kit with shims, glue, dust cap, brushes etc. or, if you want something less than a complete kit let him know.

For best advice of surrounds and re-foaming send RoyC a PM.

I don't believe more money gets you "better" surrounds. I'd also stay away from the solvent-based glue. The "WD" white glue sold by MSound and some others (such as myaudioaddiction and Rick Cobb) is easy to work with, forgiving of mistakes, and cleans up with water. Some also recommend Aleene's Tacky Glue.

The subject of "to shim or not to shim" has been beaten to death. I'm firmly in the "shim" camp, as is Roy, who has rebuilt MANY speakers and does a lot of work for "Vintage AR."

As for the smell, once you've removed the woofers pull out the stuffing and see if it smells. If so, I'd replace it. While the cabs are empty you can wipe down the insides. I think the porous things such as stuffing, raw wood and speaker grille cloth are the most likely things to retain the stink. The finished wood on the outside is probably the least likely to stink and if oiled (I'm not familiar with the 58) may benefit from re-oiling or maybe just some lemon oil or lemon Pledge.

-Kent

PS: I did a little searching and found this comment by CSP member Steve F: "The first generation of the AR-58, circa 1981, was a legitimate, quality AR speaker in the time-honored tradition of the company. It used essentially the same drivers as the floorstanding AR-91: the same 12" woofer, a 1 1/2" dome midrange, and a 3/4" dome tweeter." So in a way I AM familiar with the 58S--I restored some 91's and hope to move them to a better spot for regular listening. The 58S should be a great speaker!

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Is Msound still around? I checked is ebay account and it's been dormant for more than a year.

Sort of. John M has had some health issues so I don't know how active he is but he will respond to emails: msound@shentel.net

He told me quite some time ago he was fed up with both ebay and his ISP and had a new email address and was opening his own internet store. Well, the email works but no sign of the store yet.

-Kent

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Lots of good feedback here. Kent's advice on attacking the odor problem sounds spot-on, and count me in as another voice who likes doing business with MSound. Even though my memory occasionally suffers in the detail department, I seem to recall someone (SteveF, maybe?) possibly nominating the AR-58 as the finest "bookshelf" speaker ever made by AR. All of the drivers are excellent, as Kent and other AR-91 owners have testified.

The point raised by Aadams is a great one - - the one downside with this model is the lack of tone controls.

post-112624-0-40419700-1426363974_thumb.

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Thanks. I was wondering if Msound was still around as I hadn't seen anything from them on ebay or any other internet presence for a while.

I typically just get the foams and Use Aileen's tacky glue, and use the 30hz tone method...4 sets of AR 8", 1 set of AR10", a set of smaller advents, a set of realistic mach1's and a set of 12" becker woofers, and have never had an issue with this method. I'll email John....I haven't had a chance to pull them totally apart yet to see the xovers. If the polyfil in them is stinky, would a potential positive modification be to replace it with fiberglass? I still have quite a bit left over from my 2AX restore from a few years ago...

these are still real wood veneer, not like the newer B's, which I think are all woodgrain vinyl.

another general question for the 12" woofers. these have (well, "had" as it was falling apart) an adhesive backed open cell foam gasket over the metal frame and attachment screws. does anyone reproduce these?

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AR 58s was a speaker designed for first time, value oriented purchasers. See link to material buried deep in the AR Archives. This would explain why the 58S is a little quirky compared to earlier 12" ARs.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/special_sections/ar_uk_related_information/ar_uk_newsletters/sounds_of_ar_newsletter_mar/sounds_of_ar_newsletter_mar.html

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...

another general question for the 12" woofers. these have (well, "had" as it was falling apart) an adhesive backed open cell foam gasket over the metal frame and attachment screws. does anyone reproduce these?

Can you post a photo of that detail?

Roger

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michiganpat -

Millersound has been using some sort of cosmetic gasket on their 12" woofer restorations.

The result looks very good - much better than the bare steel frame, anyway.

Might be worth giving Bill a call for the supplier of this material.

Bill put them on my Cizek woofers but unfortunately they interfered with the foam grille. When I asked why, he said it was to prevent someone who was reinstalling the woofers from slipping with his screwdriver and putting a hole through the cone.

Been there, done that. :angry:

-Kent

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Can you post a photo of that detail?

Roger

unfortunately I didn't take a pic before I took them off...they're about 1/8" thick dense open cell foam, and go over the mounting screws....

if you look at the truth in listening brochure for the ADD line, you'll see all of the ADD's had similar foam.....my AR18's did as well....

http://classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/add_series_1975-1978/add_series_brochures/ar_truth_in_listening_broch/ar_truth_in_listening_broch_15.html

for my 18's, I used strips of 1/8" thick black felt to approximate it.

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unfortunately I didn't take a pic before I took them off...they're about 1/8" thick dense open cell foam, and go over the mounting screws....

if you look at the truth in listening brochure for the ADD line, you'll see all of the ADD's had similar foam.....my AR18's did as well....

http://classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/add_series_1975-1978/add_series_brochures/ar_truth_in_listening_broch/ar_truth_in_listening_broch_15.html

for my 18's, I used strips of 1/8" thick black felt to approximate it.

The brochure photo isn't very clear. I'm guessing it was used for cosmetic dressing from the way you describe it.

Roger

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Can you post a photo of that detail?

Roger

found some 10pi speakers on ebay, here's a clear pic of the woofer with the original open cell foam around the perimeter

post-106055-0-46995500-1426617450_thumb.

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That foam is still around and used to seal off parts, like your driver.

We use smaller version to seal off our hardware, it is air tight and in most cases hardly/never let any water through.

You should be able to find it on the Internet.

If not, let me know what size it has and I'll see what I can find.

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right now I'm probably going to try the craft store foam sheet, but I've also been looking on mcmaster carr at some of the open cell foam sheet offerings they have.

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right now I'm probably going to try the craft store foam sheet, but I've also been looking on mcmaster carr at some of the open cell foam sheet offerings they have.

Michael's has 12" x 18" sheets. Like 99 cents each.

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My curiosity was piqued regarding this external foam ring that m-pat mentioned in post 8 (58s) and then showed in post 15 (10/pi). Two reasons have thusfar been mentioned to defend its existence - - - 1) cosmetic, and 2) screwdriver slippage prevention, and I was thinking....really?...is that it ... no acoustical purpose whatsoever?

I know that several AR speaker models had original external foam rings to control dispersion or tame reflections, but these were all found on mid or HF drivers, not woofers. Now, after looking at several of the details of these speaker models, I am inclined to agree that this feature was primarily a refined, but largely unnecessary, cosmetic amendment.

Much of the AR pictorial literature is difficult to discern in detail, as confirmed by Roger's comment in post 14. But after looking at several original drawings in the Library, it can be seen that the entire mid-to-late 70's ADD lineup (10pi, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, and 18) employed an "external woofer gasket", and it appears to be the same soft material that was also used for some external tweeter rings on these models. First pic attached shows drivers for this series of speakers.

Unfortunately the Library does not have a full assembly drawing for the AR-58s, but there are drawings for all of the smaller siblings - - 48s, 28s, etc., and all of these models have woofers that have abandoned the "external woofer gasket" in favor of a rigid "trim ring", as shown in the second pic attached of the AR-48s with 10" woofer. My assumption would be that the AR-58s also followed suit, and originally was intended to have the same 12" woofer and ring combination that is found in the AR-91 (third pic).

It's a very minor detail here, but I'm willing to guess that since the OP's 12" woofers have this external gasket, this pair was originally intended for an AR-11 or 10/pi speaker. My understanding is that the 10/pi, 11, 91 and 58s all use the same woofer part number, so that's really not even an issue here. A piece of thin black foam installed neatly will look very good after the re-foam, and unlike the pic in post 15, it appears that the ADD gaskets were created to allow passage, and not coverage, of the fastening screws. The original drawings even have some minor notations for installing these external gaskets.

post-112624-0-38172800-1426695501_thumb. post-112624-0-21327700-1426696165_thumb. post-112624-0-67094100-1426698825_thumb.

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It's a very minor detail here, but I'm willing to guess that since the OP's 12" woofers have this external gasket, this pair was originally intended for an AR-11 or 10/pi speaker. My understanding is that the 10/pi, 11, 91 and 58s all use the same woofer part number, so that's really not even an issue here. A piece of thin black foam installed neatly will look very good after the re-foam, and unlike the pic in post 15, it appears that the ADD gaskets were created to allow passage, and not coverage, of the fastening screws. The original drawings even have some minor notations for installing these external gaskets.

attachicon.gifAR TIL drivers.jpg attachicon.gifar48s speakers.jpg attachicon.gifar-91.jpg

yup, my ADD AR18's had similar foam on them, but I can't remember if it covered the screws or not....I *think* it did. actually, looking at the pic I posted in #15, it's pretty clear that the foam is covering the screws. and it looks like it's an open cell/reticulated foam with ~90-100ppi. I need to measure what's left of mine to get an approximate thickness

mcmaster carr PN 86225K51 looks like it might be perfect to cut these from if I'm willing to pay $9+ shipping for the raw materials....hmm...might have to see if I can piggyback it onto an order for work to save on shipping....

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I always refer to McMaster-Carr as the source for parts you cannot find elsewhere - - love that catalog. However, if we agree that these foam rings are primarily cosmetic, I'd be following David's suggestion with some simple and very inexpensive material from a local crafts store, assuming this source is available in your locale. Instead of spending total $20 for two woofer gaskets thru M-Carr, you may be able to get craft foam locally and into your home for just a couple bucks. The stuff looks pretty good with a semi-matte finish and has enough "squish" that I have used it for making new airtight tweeter gaskets.

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The foam ring showed up in the late 70's and was used on all versions of the AR 12 inch woofer thereafter. The Tonegen AR woofer (all iterations) also had the ring, but the foam was denser...more like the foam found in craft stores. I seriously doubt there is any audible significance to the foam. If you can get under the plastic tape backing, the decomposed stuff will often easily peel off to reveal the bare metal basket. I simply paint the flange black, as was done on all previous versions of the woofer dating back to its inception.

Roy

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I'll probably use the craft foam from joann's or micheals, the OCD in me wanting to make it as close to original as possible is what got me to looking in mcmaster and other foam suppliers...

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