Gaining Speakers, While Losing My Mind!

[frankmarsi]

Oh no, now what do I do, things are changing here?

No one has answered the question about keeping or replacing the woofer capacitors?

I'd like to order parts today from P.E., now I'm stumped. While I'm talking, does anyone know of another supplier that may have better components for a fair price?

And should these 'caps' be non-polarized, electrolytic, radial, axial, radial mini electrolytic, polypropylene, capacitors or what? P.E. offers different types and I'm confused.

I'll look elsewhere?

Everyone here has given me a leg-up, for which I am gratiful for but, some details were not mentioned?

If I get too distracted, I might hook these speakers up just for a low volume, quick listen.

It's not easy being me, ya know!

fm

[JKent]

No one has answered the question about keeping or replacing the woofer capacitors?

I was all set to order parts today from P.E., now I'm stumped. While I'm talking does anyone know of another supplier that may have better components for a cheaper price?

And should these 'caps' be non-polarized, electrolytic, radial, axial, radial mini electrolytic, polypropylene, capacitors or what? P.E. offers different types and I'm confused.

P.S. nothing seems to match the required values at P.E.?

pretty sure I answered all these questions. Please see post #34 and #38

Kent

[ra.ra]

Kent's suggestions in post #38 are very good, and along with the one changed cap value (6 to 8 uF for the UMR) noted in this discussion for John's detailed shopping list, you have a couple of excellent directions here to pursue. Very similar ideas, just different capacitor manufacturers or suppliers, and each of these prescriptions advocates using the less expensive NPE caps for the larger values associated with the larger (low frequency) drivers.

Didn't mean to confuse anything with that last post of mine, and once again, I cannot verify any of those measurements, or for that matter, the type of original capacitors being measured in that crossover. While I can't say I've had any experience with capacitors that have drifted that far off the mark, my takeaway from the notes included with the x-o (that I attached in post #50) is that it might be a good idea to replace all the caps while the patient is on the operating table, or at the very least, take the necessary measurements to confirm that some might be performing well enough to keep them in your re-stored speakers.

[frankmarsi]

O.K. here's my list. It includes the two extra 8uf for the change up from the 6uf.

I've read many others claiming that the woofer 'caps' will still be good and that they hold up with time, or am taking an unnecessaryt risk?.

Also, since I've never heard AR-9s before can anyone comment on the difference in sound after the 're-cap' compared to the original sound, I'm just curious?

I'll wait for a round-house number of opinions before I click the buy-button. The parts could be here in a few days.

Please advise, thank you.

fm

Bennic 12 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V

$0.85 x 4

Bennic 40 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V

$1.50 x 2

Bennic 80 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V

$2.20 x 2

Solen PB 4 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V

$3.05 x 2

Solen PB 8 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V

$4.85 x 2

Solen PB 6 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V

$3.65 x 2

Solen PB 30 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V

$11.25 x 2

A quote from AK: "There is an extensive AR9 rework thread over at Classic Speaker Pages that says to leave the 2500uf and 470uf alone as well just to add some weight to what Madtech said. I did not replace any of the big callins caps." http://mail.audiokarma.net/forums/showthread.php?t=396437&page=13

I read this site a few days ago, from beginning to end and came out slightly better off over all.

[DavidR]

Oh no, now what do I do, things are changing here?

No one has answered the question about keeping or replacing the woofer capacitors?

I was all set to order parts today from P.E., now I'm stumped. While I'm talking does anyone know of another supplier that may have better components for a cheaper price?

And should these 'caps' be non-polarized, electrolytic, radial, axial, radial mini electrolytic, polypropylene, capacitors or what? P.E. offers different types and I'm confused.

I'll look elsewhere?

Everyone here has given me a leg-up, for which I am gratiful for but, some details were not mentioned?

I swear, if I get too distracted, I might hook these speakers up just for a low volume, quick listen.

It's not easy being me, ya know!

fm

P.S. nothing seems to match the required values at P.E.?

You can order from Erse directly

Here is the 470uF http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10-05-470-PB

Not sure about the 2500uF. Never seen a non-polar in that size. You'd have to parallel some caps together.

I would recommend the Erse mylar caps for a sound closer to electrolytics (I have RoyC to thank for that observation) than the polypropylene caps which may make them sound brighter than original.

[HarryM]

That's the caps I did when I recapped my 9's. I may have replaced the 470 uf ones as well but I'm not sure.

I have almost always ABed speakers as I recapped them and have always been very surprised. The 9's were a mess when I got them so I don't think I could AB them.

The 90's I ABed and even though they sounded good when I first hooked them up, after the recap of the first 90 the difference was huge. I was completely surprised at how much cleaner it sounded.

I'm glad you are going to recap them before you hear them for the first time. I think you will be very impressed even though you've been spoiled with stacked LST's.

Harry

[frankmarsi]

Held off on ordering the ‘caps’. I must first decide about those two big caps while involved with this issue.

DavidR, thanks for that link.

HarryM, you've touch upon a curious, and touchy area for me here.

I’ve been thinking the same. It’s with much uncertainty what my actual impressions will be.

It’s almost got me worried that I’ll be really torn between the two.

Nothing to do but wait and see.

fm

[Joel]

I didn't replace the 2500uf caps in my AR9's, but I've often wondered if I should have.

It would seem that if the originals were still good, there wouldn't be any benefit in replacing them. I've never measured mine- I don't know how. But, is there any downside to replacing them, other than cost? In other words, is there any chance that the newer caps would make things worse?

-Joel

[frankmarsi]

Hi Joel, yeah tough call on that one, I don’t know any better.

Thinking about bi-amping the AR-9.

One PL400 for the top, one PL400 for the bottom.

Anyone have a comment about this possibility?

fm

[DavidR]

You could use 2 of these > http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-1000-mfd-electrolytic-caps/

and

one of these in parallel > http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-500-mfd-electrolytic-caps/

The cost certainly isn't prohibitive. These are the largest audio grade uF, non polar caps I've found so far.

Has any work been done to those Flame Linears? I'm going to use some modified Carver amps: M1.0t and an M500t. That's the plan for now. A buddy of mine in Canada wants me to get a Bryston amp.

[frankmarsi]

Hi DavidR, regarding the PL400s, no no work has been done on the amps, and most of them sport the original transistors.

Soon eough, I will order the kit for 'wattsabuntant' that will protect speakers should the amps become upset and go crazy.

I have a number of these amps because the price was what I deem as fair and their sound quality is pretty good. Plus them are in keeping with this whole retro thing I have going on here.

Perhaps in the future I may sell them and buy another brand, but right now, they sound good and look good. I've used PL since 1974. Two rebuilt PL700II handle my four LSTs very well.

On another note; unless anyone can confirm the thought that the two bigger

caps' from the AR-9 woofers section don't necessarily have to be changed, I'm gonna order the caps from Madisound in a few moments.

fm

[frankmarsi]

Hi DavidR, regardin the PL400s, no no work has been done on the amps, and most of them sport the original transistors.

Soon eough, I will order the kit for 'wattsabuntant' that will protect speakers should the amps become upset and go crazy.

I have a number of these amps because the price was what I deem as fair and their sound quality is pretty good. Plus them are in keeping with this whole retro thing I have going on here.

Perhaps in the future I may sell them and buy another brand, but right now, they sound good and look good. I've used PL since 1974. Two rebuilt PL700II handle my four LSTs very well.

On another note; unless anyone can confirm the thought that the two bigger

caps' from the AR-9 woofers section don't necessarily have to be changed, I'm gonna order the caps from Madisound in a few moments.

One other question is the upper mid-range XO change from 6uf to 8uf, I guess I'll follow and go with the 8uf.

fm

SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST HERE. I DON"T KNOW HOW THAT HAPPENED.

[DavidR]

Yes, its an 8uF for the upper mid but there is a 6uF for the tweeter.

What's a wattsabundant? any link available. I had a new Sanken transistor let go on one of my modded amps. All I can say is I'm glad it was on my 901s as the amp went to a 70 volts DC offset. The 901(R-channel) took it w/o any damage.

[frankmarsi]

DavidR,

O.K. I ordered the 8uf 'cap' for the upper midrange and the 6uf for the tweeter. Everything will be here hopefully by this Friday.

It's funny how some many peeps are against this amp and understandably so, but when it performs, it performs very very well.

Here's his link. I'm especially interested in his output-relay which is what many amps need, not just the PL.

He developed this a couple of years ago, but I never got around to it as too many other matters had come first.

It isn't very costly, but the security is worth it a hundred fold.

I've been in and out of contact with him, he's very helpful, see him of A.K.

fm

http://home.earthlink.net/~dimlay/id24.html

[DavidR]

Thanks Frank.

Now to see if it is adaptable to my units.

[frankmarsi]

2-18-14

Well, as one of the most horrible thoughts that has been in my mind since I purchased these speakers was “what if a driver or two or all are blown?” When I refoamed the six main drivers, I did the 'ole battery test and I didn't detect any VC rubbing or the like. I will say that all the while I was repairing them, the tweeter kept coming to my mind but, I felt, no one pushes their speakers like I do, they must still be fine. How could there be a problem, these are the mighty AR-9s! The seller had to be a novice, part of the general population, he wouldn't drive them hard?

Boy, was I wrong!

Well I hooked up the AR9s just to hear them once, not more than a couple of hours ago, just to see……….

But I must report, as might be my usual and typical bad luck, that’s right Johnny, behind door number 3, both of the upper tweeters are blown and not working at all.

So, after much anticipation, my worse thoughts have now been realized. Why me?

At this point in my life, I really don't need, nor can handle any more stupid problems.

At this stage of life, I'm not even operating on all 8 cylinders any longer, this is a real mental set-back. I can feel the depressing drama as it's quickly building each minute.

I'm grinding my already loose teeth, I've lost my appetite, I know I won't sleep well tonight at all. And to boot, I'm going to the dentist tomorrow. This all really sucks!

Now, I may be able to go back to fleabay and p-yp-l and ask for something, I can’t even think straight now to even attempt to explain it to them.

I sent an email to the seller, but I know that's probably not going to yield any results as usually is the case. I'm really down at this point.

I won the auction on Feb. 6th. and picked them up on Feb.9th., today is the 18th. of Feb. So, it took a little more than a week to realize this problem.

One might say, "oh, the seller should help you", but that's a fat chance. I've been there, done that, I even got the T-shirt!

I knew I should have tried them as soon as I got them in the house as I usually do with any purchase. I was trusting that the seller didn't really know what he had or was selling. I was so happy I won the auction and I thought I was simply flat-out lucky!

In fact he may never have known the tweeters were blown as not everyone is an AR devotee or cares as we members do.

Damn to that auction site and damn to my being enticed to buy things I really don't need!

I installed a PL400 for the trial and at low volumes and with the speakers not being properly placed in the room, I was not impressed. Please forgive me fellow AR9 owners.

I realized immediately the tweeters were not functioning. Played with the speaker's toggle switches, checked wiring, checked the controls on the pre-amp Eugene, and no change of absent high frequencies. My heart dropped and so did my enthusiasm.

Although I know once I place them against the front walls they’ll no doubt sound better in terms of the bass, but not having any tweeters working is not how I'm accustomed to listening to music.

But, right now it’s the freak’in tweeter problem and that is all I can think about.

I wasn't crazy having that upper and lower mid radiating directly in my face either as I am used to the LST way of listening, which is kind of hard to explain right now.

It's almost like a nebulous cloud. Almost a force of air pressure and sound that comes at you with the AR-LSTs. Like I said, it's difficult to describe and put into words. One must experience their power of musical and voice portrayal to understand.

Any suggestions are welcome A.S.A.P., but I know nothing can really be said.

The next couple of days I’ll be busy with other matters and they’ll be no time to deal with depressing matters such as this AR-9 tweeter problem.

I'm aware that lately, AR individual drivers have increased to never before seen high prices, so I’m even more pissed!

I've been through this whole thing before about tweeters and the like, which is one reason I continue to use 'Micro-Statics' with my AR-LSTs, cause those little guys never really present any problems at all. Although a while ago one went out, I never researched the problem, I just stuck another mini-cabinet right into service and didn't worry.

fm

[DavidR]

Did you try the level switches in different positions and rule out a bad cap?

[Mafia1976]

Have you looked at the black & red caps at all? Mine were leaking pretty badly!! although I tried mine before I started work on them by just hooking up the upper section. They were sounding pretty awful before all the caps & foams were replaced.

[Joel]

I've picked up several speakers that had tweeters that didn't work. In all cases but one, recapping the speaker brought the tweeters back to life. Also, as mentioned, it could be the switches need cleaning.

-Joel

[frankmarsi]

Wow! The ‘First-Responders’ are here!

Thanks fellas, but I’ve never had the experience of a bad ‘cap’ preventing even the slightest amount of sound from coming through.

I’m strongly hoping that everyone here is correct and that the problem may be as simple as a bad ‘cap’.

But, I don’t know everything and you’ve all given me some hope. Thank you all!

Still I scratch my hairless head and wonder. I sure hope there’s this slight chance you fellas speak about, it may be true, I just don’t know any better.

I just don’t have the mental capacity (no pun intended) to think correctly now.

I’m not going into that room again tonight, maybe after I get back from la dentista tomorrow.

The seller wasn't very responsive at all regarding the sale.

It all made me even more doubtful.

In fact that’s why I was so worried from the onset, as you can read in my initial posts here.

Tomorrow I will do some strong emailing to the seller and if I lose my head, I’ll go right after the auction site and P-YP-L.

But for now I’ll lick my wounds and feel sorry for myself.

I will certainly post here with my perhaps ill-fated results?

fm

P.S. I knew I should’ve spent that money on a hair transplant instead!

P.S. Tomorrow I'll pull the woofers and take a look and see if there are any 'caps' that are leaking or have exploded.

[ar_pro]

Sorry to learn of all the problems, Frank.

Unfortunately, I've never encountered an AR-9 with a non-responsive tweeter that was anything other than a dead driver.

The fact that you've got two bad tweeters makes it even more likely that they've been overdriven to failure, sorry to say.

It's possible that the HF switch is at fault, or even a disconnected wire - have you tried running a continuity test from the crossover to the tweeter leads?

It might also be a good time to double-check those midrange domes - with your ear to the dome, single piano notes at low volume should show no trace of breakup.

Good luck!

[frankmarsi]

2-18-14 9:44 EST

****NEWS FLASH****

Just checked my emails and the seller claims he hadn't listened to the speakers in years but, they did work then.

He also offers $200. and is asking me if that is O.K.? He claims the $200. is fair.

Holy molly, what should I do?

Used AR-9. AR-90, etc. tweeters have been offered and sold for $229. or so that I've seen of that site.

I have the ABtech in boxes for these last few years. I have the HiVi what ever sitting in boxes. These tweeters were all alloted for my AR-LSTs though.

I could find originals and buy them, I could do that? But, I can't wait, I'm always waiting for something or other.

I think I'll contact him tomorrow and let and let it rest for right now.

Should I ask for $225. or $250.?

Opinions welcome, like presto.

Wouldn't it be funny if the seller is actually a member on this site?

fm

[Kuja]

Can you unmount and disconnect the tweeters and measure the resistance across their + and - terminals?

This is the only way to be 100% sure that the tweeters are really bad.

If I remember correctly, UMR drivers and tweeters in my AR90 speakers (same as in AR9) measured in the 3.3 - 3.8 Ohm range.

Readings much lower than that could mean that there is a short between some voice coil windings,

caused by wire insulation melting as a result of overheating.

If you get no reading at all, that means that the tweeter's voice coil is open.

The first thing that I do when I buy used speakers, is to take all the drivers out and measure them across terminals.

[JKent]

Can you unmount and disconnect the tweeters and measure the resistance across their + and - terminals?

This is the only way to be 100% sure that the tweeters are really bad.

DITTO!

And if they truly are bad, $200 is more than fair. Sounds like a very decent and honest seller so be sure the tweets are bad before taking his money.

Kent

[frankmarsi]

2-19-14 4P.M. EST

O.K. Just got back from the dentist and I immediately pulled a tweeter and got out my trusty ohmmeter. It read a complete open with no resistance at all. Checked and rechecked.

It’s amazing how much basic electricity I’ve forgotten over the years though.

And to think all of that USN, ‘Interior-Communications-Technician’ education, gee, the ship would’ve went down with all on board! Perish the thought!

So, JKent, I was a good boy, I read them first and then went for the money, honey.

I contacted the seller and told him that I was cool with the $200 bucks he offered. Now I must sit and hope that he is sincere about sending it my way?

I feel it was fair and actually means that other than the cost of surrounds, new caps, grief, and mucho other stress related to the purchase of the monoliths, I’ll sleep O.K. tonite.

In reality, there’s so many open-projects at hand here, I can’t begin to explain to all of you fellas. It’s been that way for several years now. And as it’s going, the dust is just starting to settle, although, the smoke hasn’t cleared yet. There’s still more, much more domestic matters that I must settle.

Now, back to the issues at hand, as this is my only vent for recreational pleasure. Sad isn’t it? Not actually, what could be better for retirement? Many things Alice, many things.

My hoard of the ABTech and HiVi tweeters had been originally purchased for my flock of AR-LSTs and the herd of AR-3as along with the family of AR-2axs (which I may have to sell, there’s just too many boxes in my life right now), so I may start the arduous journey of looking for two more capable tweeters.

Gee, I would’ve been happier if I were able to have the factory originals surviving, but hey, everything I do own has more or less been bastardized, so, that’s life.

Anyone with some food for thought here. I realize I have to ‘bust-a-move’ soon because I really want to hear what all the fuss is about these speakers.

These big boxes that have drawn me away from my true love, the LSTs, the AR9s better amaze me, because that’s how I think it should go.

Can I slap in an ABTech tweeter with or with-out a coil? And if so, am I in for a treat?

I do have extra Micro-Statics, but momma, I want to hear them AR9s!