Labels and Screws

[Charles218]

It seems like it's been forever that I've been "almost" finished restoring a couple of pairs of 3A's. Now that I'm "really almost" finished, I find that I need a couple of items and once again I coming to the fine folks on this forum for help.

For the most part the labels on the rear of the cabinet are either missing or in very poor shape. In a thread from last October, someone uploaded a high resolution image for a AR-4X label, does anyone have the same for the 3A? I've tried, without success, to photograph the labels on my other 3A's, but I just can't get the quality right and Photoshop is still a mystery to me. It actually might be a good idea to put a collection of these in the Library.

Also, does anyone have a source for the 3A woofer mounting screws? I've tried my local full serve hardware store, but they don't have black. I may have found plastic screws online, but they have a minimum order of 1000. If possible, I would like to find the exact screw and would appreciate any leads.

[JKent]

It actually might be a good idea to put a collection of these in the Library.

Great suggestion!

Regarding the screws, are they Philips head machine screws? I think that's what my AR-3s have. Couldn't you get plain ones from the hardware store and paint them black? Do you know the size you need?

Kent

[RobHolt]

It's a very good idea.

I've just got some AR7s so will put a scan of those up later.

[Charles218]

Kent & Rob,

My notes say "AR 3A requires eight 1/4 - 20 Fillister screws to secure the woofer", that is what I am looking for. I just found one here, <http://www.amazonsupply.com/dp/B001GCXFDU/ref=sp_dp_g2c_asin>, that might work and it is quite inexpensive. I will place an order, unless someone comes up with a better option.

Rob, it was your posts from last October that I was referring to, and I was absolutely impressed with the quality of your work. That, in part, is what has sent me on a hunt to make these look and feel as good as possible. It would be wonderful to get good high resolution scans of the information label for each speaker version, plus one of the warranty card.

[JKent]

Charles,

If 1/4-20 is the correct size those nylon screws will lok right but I'm not sure I'd trust nylon threads in steel to hold those heavy woofers. Slotted filister head screws are more common than Philips for some reason. http://www.fastenersdepotny.com/1-4-20x1-ft-m-s-fillister-hd-slotted-zinc-cr-3/ Also saw some on ebay.

But the Phillips head ones do exist: http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/partNumber/384735/MPLB/Screws/1|4-20-X-1-Machine-Screws-Phillips-Fillister-Head-Steel-Black-Oxide

Problem is finding someone who will sell a small quantity. You might try that 2nd link and use their online chat or phone them to see if they would sell a small box.

Good luck.

Kent

[ra.ra]

I don't think you want to use nylon screws. Try to find some black screws in steel - if you cannot find black, at worst you'll have to give 'em a spritz of flat black paint. I see the idea (small diameter) behind the fillister head, but I suspect that a far more common screw that should work fine is the Philips pan head, which seem to be used on many smaller (not 12") diameter AR woofers. Also, be sure to specify the correct length.

[Anthropologo]

they are available on ebay from vintage-ar; however, at 8 per cabinet and $15 per 3 pieces, you are looking at $60.00 a cabinet to stay original....on the other hand, home depot carries them in 1/2, 3/4, and 1 inch lengths for less than a dollar a pair, while they're chrome, a quick spray with black krylon still seems a cheaper and equally viable option.....

[JKent]

Good find Anth. I searched earlier with no luck but sure enough--Home Despot has 'em

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-1-4-20-x-1-in-Zinc-Fillister-Phillips-Machine-Screw-2-Pack-97998/203538618

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[Charles218]

Both the Home Depot and MonsterFastener.com product should work, though neither is an exact match for the original AR screw. I'm more concerned about using paint as I doubt that it will withstand multiple cycles of removing and replacing the woofer. Certainly either would be better than the nylon version that I found earlier. Four boxes of the black pan head from MonsterFastener priced out at .34 cents each including shipping, and should last for the foreseeable future.

[RoyC]

Both the Home Depot and MonsterFastener.com product should work, though neither is an exact match for the original AR screw. I'm more concerned about using paint as I doubt that it will withstand multiple cycles of removing and replacing the woofer. Certainly either would be better than the nylon version that I found earlier. Four boxes of the black pan head from MonsterFastener priced out at .34 cents each including shipping, and should last for the foreseeable future.

Charles,

The original type screw is only available in huge quantities (Btw, the original length is 3/4"...This type of screw is measured from the bottom of the head). Vintage AR/Larry's price for used ones is very high for this reason. In fact, he actually has very few to sell.

I have used ones you can have for somewhat less than Larry's price, but the Home Depot item seems like a very good deal. Have a $1 bottle of flat black craft store paint available to touch up your screws for woofer removal. How often do you think you will be removing them?

Fillister head screws were used because most wider screw heads are too big, and will contact the outer, turned up edge of the woofer basket.

Roy

[Charles218]

Roy,

It never occurred to me that the measurement was taken from the bottom of the head, that explains why what I was seeing at my local hardware store did not seem to be right.

Being guided by several pictures of various members meticulous attention to detail and authenticity, I am trying to keep these as close to original as is practically possible. Not needing or wanting to order one thousand of these, the black pan head version sold by Monster Fastener seems to be the best compromise. Every time I close up a cabinet, thinking it will be the last time, it seems that something else comes up and I need to get inside again. I feel that using the black screws in the end will give a better look and give me one less opportunity for my clumsy fingers to get in trouble.

[RoyC]

Charles,

See the attached photo of an original fillister head screw. The clearance to the the woofer edge will not accommodate many other types of screws. The pan head screws I have tried were too large.

Roy

[ra.ra]

It would surprise me if the pan head screws did not work just fine, but please do heed the advice and concern expressed in Roy's final comment in post #10 - - - you do not want to create an awkward install if the screw head comes into contact with the upturned metal lip of the woofer basket. Without having a 3a woofer in front of me, I am unable to comment on the tolerance between the eight woofer screw holes and the T-nuts, so it's unclear to me just how precise the screw head must fit within the basket frame.

In my area, even the Ace Hardware stores have parts bins for small quantity purchases (see pic below) - - the selection is very good (blackened screws, too!) but their unit prices are rather inflated. Another screw type I like to use for various projects is the socket head cap screw - - - the head size is similar to the fillister, but you do need an allen wrench rather than a Phillips driver.

[RoyC]

In my area, even the Ace Hardware stores have parts bins for small quantity purchases (see pic below) - - the selection is very good (blackened screws, too!) but their unit prices are rather inflated. Another screw type I like to use for various projects is the socket head cap screw - - - the head size is similar to the fillister, but you do need an allen wrench rather than a Phillips driver.

ace.jpg 1:4-20 ebay.jpg

ra.ra,

I've used them, and that 3/4" socket screw is a perfect match to the dimensions of the original screw. Lowes carries them as well. AR used a small head screw requiring an allen wrench for this woofer in the AR-11, as well as some other late 70's models.

Roy

[ra.ra]

Good to know, Roy. Sometimes I can get to be a bit of a design nerd fretting over the best screw-washer combo for my various projects when appearance matters (to me, at least). Simply put, I happen to really like the look of the allen heads, even if I always seem to misplace my hex wrenches (whereas a Phillips driver is always near at hand). Even tho' I've never owned the somewhat later speakers (AR-11, etc.), I do seem to recall a different mounting screw as you have mentioned.

Without going back to Charles' earlier post on this project, I can't seem to recall exactly which woofer he has for these AR-3a's - - - maybe it's possible that a pan head screw would work with an early cloth-surround woofer? Probably not germane here (head too wide) for Charles' project, but another favorite screw type of mine is the button head cap screw.

Charles, you're going to have to see which screw fits your specific situation best and still meets your visual criteria.

[Charles218]

Yeah, I knew that I should have given it more time, but I placed an order for the black pan heads earlier today. The cost was just under $19 for 60 pieces and that includes shipping.

I would think that the size will not be an issue as all of the drivers that I am currently working on are flat and do not have the rim. Had I waited, I would have gone for the allen head style, while certainly not a visual match for the original it I very much like the way it looks.

[Charles218]

The pan head screws arrived today, the shipping was very fast as the order shipped the same day and only had to travel across the state. Because my woofers do not have the raised rim, there is absolutely no issue with the head being too wide. I don't have a woofer with the rim so can not say one way or the other if these would be a problem or not. Cosmetically they are fine, I was probably overly sensitive about this, and then fell back to "it's all about the music," thank you Carl.

[RoyC]

The pan head screws arrived today, the shipping was very fast as the order shipped the same day and only had to travel across the state. Because my woofers do not have the raised rim, there is absolutely no issue with the head being too wide. I don't have a woofer with the rim so can not say one way or the other if these would be a problem or not. Cosmetically they are fine, I was probably overly sensitive about this, and then fell back to "it's all about the music," thank you Carl.

It is fortunate that you have the early cast aluminum basket used with the cloth surround woofer. I spoke to Larry today about it, and he confirmed that he gets calls all the time from people who have tried pan head screws on the more common stamped steel baskets with no success. It is the only reason he is able to sell original screws at crazy prices.

Roy

[ra.ra]

From post #15 ............. "maybe it's possible that a pan head screw would work with an early cloth-surround woofer?" After tossing around the various screw options, I had a sneaking suspicion we did not actually know which woofer Charles was in fact using.

It's looking good so far, Charles - - please be sure to update us further as these speakers come together. Altho' I've never worked on those woofers (or the cloth 10" either), I understand that it is prudent to be certain that any and all of the masonite rings are firmly cemented to their adjacent metal surfaces.

Again, just for reference, one more pic of various machine screws used with T-nuts for early AR drivers.