HK Citation II for AR 3s. Couple ?s.

[alkermes]

I forgot to say, best wishes to SH in your pursuit of the amp. If you decide to buy it you will have some envious forum mates who will hope you have a open house when it goes into action :-)

Another point with this amp, in this case all of the can caps are underneath the chassis and not exposed, so aesthetically speaking there's no reason not to use modern components, there's no look to spoil.

[stupidhead]

I certainly hope this works out well for you. I see you have "reached out" to a qualified tech. Maybe he can examine the work or at the very least look at some good quality hi-rez close-up photos.

Keep us posted.

-Kent

Kent, I am now in dialog with Don Sachs about this unit. I will be going over to seller's house on Thursday to open this jewel up and getting better pics of the guts. I will be anxious to hear his impressions, and of course I will share those with you all. As well as pics!

But if you love the beast, go for it!

-Kent

This piece has spoken to me and all indications are that I will be moving forward with this piece!

Another thought: I have not tried this myself, but some people who want the "warmth" of tubes like to use a tube preamp with a SS amp. Just a thought.

That's an excellent point, Kent.

A tube preamp could provide the warmth that so many tube-enthusiasts love, and a solid-state power amplifier could provide the muscle that speakers like the AR-3 seem to require.

One of the best-sounding & well-matched systems that I heard during the Classic Rock era consisted of a Dynaco PAS-3 preamp, driving a Crown DC-300 power amplifier.

The speakers were Epicure 3.0, with the "truncated pyramid" cabinet (photo attached).

I recall the system as having a very sweet sound, but with plenty of punch, when needed.

Then again, there's just nothing like your first vacuum tube power amplifier!

The pre amp question is up in the air for now. I have a 2270 that after refurb should be fine for a starter pre. My focus for now needs to be the amp and yes this would be my first tube amp!

More grist for the mill:

There are some new SS amps out there that are way above my pay grade but not everything happens in a vacuum (tube) : http://www.krellonline.com/stereo-amps.html

Roger

Roger, it's funny you mention this. I had a Krell KAV 400xi that I liked very much. Tons of power and crystal clear, but I found it to be too sterile for my taste and I traded it straight up for a Marantz 2325 that had been gone through by a very qualified tech. In the end we were both happy with the trade.

Geoff

Using McShane PSU recap kit is useful for several reasons. First CED do not produce suitable twistlock caps for voltage doubler circuit in PSU. It might be beneficial to use 680-1000 UF caps as suggested for this part of PSU and use something 1N5408 variety diodes for rectification, as together they will provide less ripple and will fit in place provided for C1 and C2.

When using clamp mounted caps, you can also separate signal ground from chassis ground with or without ground lift resistor. This makes it possible to use grounded 3 prong mains cable. This will improve safety of vintage gear 1000% as fuse will blow whenever there is live connected to chassis. Safety is even better if you can connect signal ground to chassis ground without ground loop hum.

McShane´s improved bias supply grounding makes also sense to me. I simply can not understand how it is possible that I found 5-6 clear grounding errors, when I rebuilt my Citation 11.

I would replace other components only if they are defective. I learned this hard way when I rebuilt Quad 22 line stage. I replaced resistors with more modern better spec ones... and I had to install almost all original ones as they simply sounded better.

Best Regards

Kimmo

Kimmo, mcShane's resources will be the way I go with this unit. Alot of what you say is above my understanding but I appreciate the input!

Sounds like a fun project ... keep us posted

You know it!

Geoff,

Sounds like an exciting project.

Another thought.... Have you ever considered building a brand new tube amp kit like this?

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm

The VTA-ST120 looks pretty cool (and half the price of the Citation).

I'm just sayin'.....

-Kent

So there have been a variety of suggestions to go a different direction for amp but unless something drastic rears it's head it will be the Citation II. I was actually very close to pulling the trigger on a set of Adcom 555 GFA GFP and GFT but it is my opinion that these are very good pieces but also common. While the Citation isn't necessarily rare they are not particularly common either.

Sounds like a lot of work, but a picture says more then a 1000 words so bring them on

Yes, pics are ready but first a quick caveat. This forum is for AR speakers and I don't want to stray from that. On the other hand the remodel that we are doing has a lot to do with AR speakers as placement of speakers is a big part of our design/floor plan. Here is the first pic which for orientation is from the wall that the 3s will reside on, looking into the space they will fill.

The depth to far wall (which is the front of the house) is 34 feet. The front door is right center. Also know that the remaining wall fragments are going away once the "beam" goes in. Far left corner where the small double hung window is will be the "control" area. The breaker panel is directly below and I have a few open breakers available for dedicated power feed for the various needs here.

This would be a view as you enter from the front door....

remember, the walls you see to the right here will be gone in the end.

Looking to right here is what will be the control area (amps, turntables, etc...) and the double hung will be eliminated to accommodate for needed shelving for the systems. And of course that will allow for some art to be hung there as well.

Genghis is supervising!

and then to the left will be a more intimate sitting area with fireplace. The vision is for a pair of 4x to be the sound for this space. The wall on the right will be staying and will be the only wall in the entire space.

and lastly, for those interested in the window

and the vision here will be to have a proper shelf built on either side of this for the 3s.

These look pretty good deals to me too... Circuit topology is most likely similar to Citation II as there are not too many practical ways to use 3 triode sections for input stage. So my ques is that they use classic Mullard EL34 UL-amplifier configuration with direct coupled paraphase inverter. They have also decided to use small amount of overall feedback on this new "Dyna" line (10db was quoted for M-125) ... so feedback loop around phase inverter stage that Hegeman used probably does not exist (or ratio is very small) , as there is simply not enough open loop gain with 12AU7/12BH7 dual triodes compared to 12BY7 pentodes in H/K.

What bothers me on this "Dyna" line is the use of obsolete twist lock capacitor. What is the point to use capacitor that may be unavailable within year (if sales volume is not enough for CED) in design that is not meant to be faithful reproduction of classic amp. Chassis is different, circuit topology is different and many smaller details have been changed... so with small modern electrolytic´s there should have been other ways to build PSU, even fit is tight especially in ST-120.

This similar circuit topology made me think that Conrad Jonson MV75 is about to receive classic vintage tube amp status and is classic example of similar configuration. Models like MV50, MV52 and Pemier 11 are not too far from it and they all have been sensibly priced recently. As far as I remember I paid less than 1400GBP for almost mint condition Premier 11A without tube cage 5 years ago. Looks of MV series are a bit utilitarian, but Premier 11 is more attractive looking. Premier 11A is voiced like Geoff described Citation II to be. Not exactly neutral... but somehow similar way that my AR2ax voicing has been done... smooth and slightly depressed top end, slightly under damped LF... very nice to the ear.

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/a-mv75.html

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/classic_product_page.html

Best Regards

Kimmo

Kimmo, I don't understand a lot of what you have written, but I appreciate it.

Here's another Jim McShane link for his kits for upgrading the Citation II power supply: http://www.mcshanedesign.net/citpage.htm.

To quote, with his kit: "You end up with 630 uf (vs. 140 uf stock) of high quality capacitance for the B+, and twice the decoupling

capacitance." But he just doesn't 4x the capacitance, he also updates the PS diodes, necessary for the increase in capacitance.

In my opinion...despite all the work that went into stuffing the cans, I would re-evaluate the work that has been done and use Mr. McShane's recommended parts, as he is the expert on these amps. And Mr. Sachs, as DavidDru linked, is the guy to go to if you would like someone to do the work. Why not shoot him an email, if you haven't already, and explain the situation to him and get his recommendation.

If I were restoring a Citation II, there's a better way to go. This amp deserves a first class restoration.

I couldn't agree more! I have an awful lot of work ahead of me still, but in the end it will be worth it big time.

[stupidhead]

I forgot to say, best wishes to SH in your pursuit of the amp. If you decide to buy it you will have some envious forum mates who will hope you have a open house when it goes into action :-)

Another point with this amp, in this case all of the can caps are underneath the chassis and not exposed, so aesthetically speaking there's no reason not to use modern components, there's no look to spoil.

Yes, an open house will certainly happen! Of course I will let you all know with plenty of notice. Realistically Fall of 2016.

[iso]

you have to walk that fine line of restore vs upgrade. In this case there are newer better caps that could be used that would be superior to standard electrolytics. Poly films caps are what I am referring to and would likely be used if that particular piece was to be built today. Of course it would be a lot bigger too because of it!

I fear that this is not too practical way to restore or upgrade Citation II. 5 pcs stock twistlocks are 30-35mm dia ones and approx 60mm tall. If you replace twistlocks with Solen Fastcaps, that are no genuine poly films/foil capacitor as aluminium electrode is vacuum deposited on polypropylene film to reduce size and cost... even then you have to find space for 2 pcs (58x85 mm sized) 200UF/250 axials, 3 pcs sized 50x115mm 51UF/630V radials (or 54x65mm axials) and 2 pcs (28x43mm) 20UF/250V axials on PSU bracket or some other place inside chassis. You may note that every poly cap is considerably bulkier than original one and quantity will increase from 5 to 7 as dual sections are not available, unless I have mistaken... so this is not going to be easy task.If you find enough room inside chassis for original PSU capacitance... increasing PSU capacitance as recommended will take 3 times more space.

https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/fastcap.pdf

I am enclosing link for Conrad Johnson Premier 7 preamplifier. I do have one, but unit in link is not mine. If you look at PSU pictures, there is 360 UF smoothing capacity (12 pc 30UF/250V Solen Fastcaps) for both channels in total and some smaller ones for other duties. Less than 2 psc 200UF/250V caps in Citation II performing similar task. Premier 7 is from late 80´s... bigger Solen´s do take less space, but anyway PSU chassis is full 19" width, 15" depth and 3,5" height, due to chassis height relatively small 30UF/250V caps have been used. Bottom line is that if you replace these Solens with two pcs 220UF/250V electrolytics, quite much smaller chassis had been needed..

http://www.vintagehificlub.com/reviews-articoli/conrad-johnson-premier-seven-tube-premplifier/

Geoff ... I agree with you, McShane way is the way Citation II deserves. Give regards to your Cat from Pekka the Cat...

Best Regards

Kimmo

[JKent]

Geoff,

That looks like a great remodeling project! Reminds me of work I did on our 1st house when I was younger and had more energy for such things

Looking forward with great anticipation to the "after" shots!

-Kent

[owlsplace]

Love the room and I have a feeling you are going to love the Citation

[VintageMan]

Yep, the room and window(!) looks great.

Can't wait to see the result of all your hard work.

[stupidhead]

So thanx for the encouraging words folks, much appreciated. I was able to get by the seller's house yesterday and get some better pics of this unit with a better camera.

and I have forwarded some pics to Don. He has responded with this being the "newest version" and pretty much all original except for the re-stuffing of the cans noted previously. Good candidate for the rebuild. I keep getting this gut feeling that I am paying too much for the amp, and the cost of the complete rebuild added is more than my budget allows. I also fear that this is one of those things that cost and value and worth are not always going to be the same.

Additional pics from the thumbnails!

Geoff

[VintageMan]

Nice pictures!

I agree, I have te same with some of my vintage Amps. The cost of buying and rebuilding are more then I will ever get selling them.

That is something to live with if you can, I know I can.

I also fear that this is one of those things that cost and value and worth are not always going to be the same.

[stupidhead]

Hello folks, wanted to update this for those interested. The unit pictured is no longer being considered. I just could not come to terms with seller on a fair price, considering the additional work that would have been needed to make it want I want it to be.

That is the bad (not really) news. The good news is that I am still looking for a Citation II for the room, and there are frequent listings on various resources. This unit just seems to speak to me on a number of levels and after doing a great deal of research, my resolve for this is strong.

Of course I will update both the remodel piece of this thread as well as the procurement of the HK.

By the way, Don Sachs has been very helpful by answering my many questions to him about various possibilities that I have posed to him, and I once again am grateful to be involved in a community of like minded folks who happily offer guidance and insights in my quest for the holy grail.

Good thing I am a patient person.

[stupidhead]

One step closer

https://www.facebook.com/ratdogheads/videos/vb.1427340524/10204885535004626/?type=2&theater&notif_t=like

not sure about the ability to see this post for everyone. If this is not viewable I can try something different.

[iso]

Can not see...

Kimmo

[stupidhead]

try it again Kimmo et al

[JKent]

Nice! "Many hands make light work." I'm guessing that's an older house. Plaster walls upstairs? You had to jack the ceiling up above the level of the steel beam, then let it back down to rest on the beam, so was there any damage caused by that flexing?

Great project and you're creating a wonderful space.

Of course you ARE a certifiable hi-fi nut! Basically building a house around your speakers and amp . Gotta love that!

Keep us posted!

-Kent

[alkermes]

Good luck on finding that Citation. I'm sure you'll find one, most likley when you least expect it!

[DavidDru]

I look forward to the full version on HGTV!

The cost of an open floor plan in an older house.....

gonna be great.

[stupidhead]

Hi Kent et al, in fact the first floor is early 50's era. House was originally a ranch! I added a second floor (in-law apartment) about twelve years ago and now the house style is a Garrison. The in-laws (and ex) are gone, and our kids are all out so it has opened up all these possibilities. Thankfully the in-law apt. has a full kitchen upstairs so we are not crushed for getting things done quickly.

I am familiar with the idea of lowering back the floor to meet the beam, but in fact what is not in the video was a couple of floor jacks were used to press the beam into place which brought ceiling back to perfectly level, and the only effect to the upstairs was one door will need to be adjusted as the keeper is now slightly off. Other than that there was no sheetrock cracks noted yet, but in the end we will rework the floor plan upstairs to eliminate the feel of the in-law space upstairs.

Empty nesting is good!

As for the Citation II, I have secured a fully McShaned unit and hope to have it within a month or so! The amp is in the possession of Don Sachs (McShanes tech) and has or will have all possible upgrades, including a time delay so tubes come up slowly. There will be a party at my house in the Summer or Fall for sure!

Geoff

[iso]

I hope your Citation and party will bee great.

Do not drink too much at the party. My wife has reminded me time to time for passing out at my 50 anniversary almost 7 years ago.

Best Regards

Kimmo

[stupidhead]

Nice! "Many hands make light work." I'm guessing that's an older house. Plaster walls upstairs? You had to jack the ceiling up above the level of the steel beam, then let it back down to rest on the beam, so was there any damage caused by that flexing?

Great project and you're creating a wonderful space.

Of course you ARE a certifiable hi-fi nut! Basically building a house around your speakers and amp . Gotta love that!

Keep us posted!

-Kent

Yes Kent you are correct! I'm sick I tell you, sick!

[DavidDru]

FWIW, I had some communication with Jim McShane this past week regarding the Citation II. I asked if he felt it would drive AR9's well enough. His response was that he has AR9's and his "McShaned" Citation II at nearly 150/ch drives them beautifully.

My guess is that if it does well with the 9's, it will be good as well with the 3's.

[iso]

Here is link to Stewart Hegeman interview in 1961... very interesting toughts about amplifier design and his quite rare Citation X speaker, which seems to be Lowhther based. I did read that he did build wide screen projection TV for local bar in late 50´s and working video recorder for home use in 1964.

http://www.roger-russell.com/omni/interview.htm

Kimmo

[DavidDru]

Hey Geoff, you get the amp yet?

[stupidhead]

51 minutes ago, DavidDru said:

Hey Geoff, you get the amp yet?

not yet, but I suspect within the month. of course I will splash pics on CSP as soon as I do.

[DavidDru]

Looking forward to it, but I am sure not as much as you are.

I have been discussing my new purchase with Don and Jim and it got me thinking about yours. 

 

[owlsplace]

On 2/1/2016 at 0:17 AM, iso said:

Here is link to Stewart Hegeman interview in 1961... very interesting toughts about amplifier design and his quite rare Citation X speaker, which seems to be Lowhther based. I did read that he did build wide screen projection TV for local bar in late 50´s and working video recorder for home use in 1964.

http://www.roger-russell.com/omni/interview.htm

Kimmo

Thanks Kimmo for that link. It is hard to believe that I was never acquainted with Hegeman's work.