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Thoughts on Amps for 3's


DavidDru

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Cool. I forget what preamp you are using?

Still using the SAE preamp for the moment. It is a light weight unit with seven band tone control and even works with the power off. Actually I have two of these -- one is in the rare black panel mount. It needs some work however and I haven't determined how to source old transistors yet ...

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Hello , after many years of solid state , high current power amp, last month I bought a little Allied-Knight integrated amp, 1962 , 10 watts per channel, for my Altec Valencias . The little Knight improves so much the sound of Altecs, but it' s too weak for my AR 3. So two days ago I bought a very nice EICO ST40 seen on ebay, 20 watts per channel , Westinghouse 7591 tubes, and now I'm here, listening this early '60 system . This little amp drives easily AR 3's , at normal listening levels , but gives me a warm , three-dimensional sound I 've never heard before. I 'm currently selling my solid state system, switchin' to tubes amps . Here in Rome I 've found a nice pair of Dynaco Mk III mono power amp and an Eico HF 89 stereo at affordable prices .

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I was very happy to purchase a stack of Yamaha gear earleir this year that included an MX-1000 amplifier. No chance of running out of steam with this one, it's rated at 330 Watts (4 ohms) from 20 to 20,000 Hz at no more than 0.02% Total Harmonic Distortion.

I have my 3a's (awaiting restoration) hooked up to this amp, and they really do shine. I've also had the 3a's hooked up to other amps and receivers, such as a Technics SA-700, Pioneer SX-950, Sansui AU-317, Adcom GFA-535 and others. They've all sounded good.

I haven't tried any tube equipment yet, but I have a Sherwood S8000 on the way, I'll give this combo a shot too.

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In small or medium sized rooms , using a vintage low power tube amp could be a nice surprise , with acoustic jazz or chamber music . A Fisher X 100 or 101 or a Scott Stereomaster or an Eico ST40 just like mine, or its big brother ST70 aren 't expensive and could bring You into a different sound . A step closer to reality . For many years I 've used SAE , Marantz, Soundcratfsmen , and last one the excellent and powerful Crown PSA 2 , but nothing comes close to real instruments as these tubes amps. Warm, three-dimensional , detailed and precise sound without any excessive brightness.

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The Sherwood S8000 uses 7868 tubes, like the Fisher 400. It will be completely restored, so it will be a fair test of the receiver's capabilitites. I'll report back when I've had a chance to give it a go. Hopefully it will be a good match and make beautiful music.

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I believe this Sherwood will give You a great opportunity to hear a better sound from your AR speakers . More matural, more musical. Sometimes i spend a sunday listening my early '60 system, it never happens with SS equipment.

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Am pleased to see the last three posts addressing the desirability of older, low-wattage tube amplifiers. Not sure exactly what it takes to begin to satisfy those big 12" woofers on the AR-3's which is the topic of this thread, but this little integrated amp has been a perfect partner to my first pair of 4x speakers in my various homes for 43 years now. This is a Scott 222-D, circa 1964, and I believe it originally delivered close to a whopping 24 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Plus, it has rear taps for 4-ohm speakers. Possibly not germane for applications involving larger three-ways, but a modest vintage amp like this is certainly very suitable for a simple set-up involving smaller two-way speakers.

Not that I might not one day desire some more robust electronics, but count me amongst those who believe we don't necessarily need multiple hundreds of watts of amplification for most home audio needs.

post-112624-0-73422600-1439308353_thumb. post-112624-0-23236600-1439308906_thumb. post-112624-0-50957400-1439308933_thumb.

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1 watt will produce 85-90 dB SPL /1M with average speaker. It is quite much easier to make good, stable 30 watt amplifier than 300 WPC powerhouse. If you do not need this much power you can buy quality, not quantity.

Best Regards

Kimmo

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Am pleased to see the last three posts addressing the desirability of older, low-wattage tube amplifiers. Not sure exactly what it takes to begin to satisfy those big 12" woofers on the AR-3's which is the topic of this thread, but this little integrated amp has been a perfect partner to my first pair of 4x speakers in my various homes for 43 years now. This is a Scott 222-D, circa 1964, and I believe it originally delivered close to a whopping 24 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Plus, it has rear taps for 4-ohm speakers. Possibly not germane for applications involving larger three-ways, but a modest vintage amp like this is certainly very suitable for a simple set-up involving smaller two-way speakers.

Not that I might not one day desire some more robust electronics, but count me amongst those who believe we don't necessarily need multiple hundreds of watts of amplification for most home audio needs.

Oh, man, I love those old Scott amplifiers.

Have you seen the amps & tuners offered by mapleshade?

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Scott-Tube-Amps-and-Tuners/departments/309/

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Am pleased to see the last three posts addressing the desirability of older, low-wattage tube amplifiers. Not sure exactly what it takes to begin to satisfy those big 12" woofers on the AR-3's which is the topic of this thread, but this little integrated amp has been a perfect partner to my first pair of 4x speakers in my various homes for 43 years now. This is a Scott 222-D, circa 1964, and I believe it originally delivered close to a whopping 24 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Plus, it has rear taps for 4-ohm speakers. Possibly not germane for applications involving larger three-ways, but a modest vintage amp like this is certainly very suitable for a simple set-up involving smaller two-way speakers.

I have the earlier, similar 299 (A), circa 1958-60, awaiting restoration. I've spruced up the cabinet and cleaned the faceplate but have not worked on the innerds. The 299 has 17 wpc but may be nice to drive my 4x's. After all, when I bought the 4x's back in '69 I drove them with a 17 wpc Dynakit ST-35 and they sounded good!

-Kent

post-101828-0-52028800-1439321071_thumb.

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That Scott is a real beauty, Kent - - - we each have six knobs, six switches and the same original wood case, but your amp must be better than mine since it has more lights :angry::P . And ar-pro, yes, I have heard of this mapleshade outfit but I don't really know what it is that they do.

In this article, after acknowledging the relative inefficiency of the AR-3, the reviewer concludes that for stereo use, 20 watts per channel should be sufficient. However, the manufacturer typically recommended 25 watts per side, but did allow for special circumstances where 30 or 60 watts are not "unreasonable".

To be sure, the big heavy-duty power equipment can often be very impressive, and we all do get obsessive about the manufacturer's printed product specifications, but this discussion begs the question: what happened to yesterday's "big" watts? :wacko:

post-112624-0-66331500-1439325801_thumb. post-112624-0-42895000-1439325819_thumb. post-112624-0-02328800-1439325959_thumb. post-112624-0-26566500-1439326457_thumb.

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Hello , after many years of solid state , high current power amp, last month I bought a little Allied-Knight integrated amp, 1962 , 10 watts per channel, for my Altec Valencias . The little Knight improves so much the sound of Altecs, but it' s too weak for my AR 3. So two days ago I bought a very nice EICO ST40 seen on ebay, 20 watts per channel , Westinghouse 7591 tubes, and now I'm here, listening this early '60 system . This little amp drives easily AR 3's , at normal listening levels , but gives me a warm , three-dimensional sound I 've never heard before. I 'm currently selling my solid state system, switchin' to tubes amps . Here in Rome I 've found a nice pair of Dynaco Mk III mono power amp and an Eico HF 89 stereo at affordable prices .

I can understand your preference for tube sound. Theoretically there should be no difference between the sound of an accurate amp, tube or solid state, if it is not driven to clipping levels. Although the sound of a clipping tube amp may be pleasant it is not especially accurate. For that matter, AR-3s are not especially accurate but I can understand why people like the sound they can produce. I was just never one of them :)

Here is a little background on what happens when an amplifier clips a signal for anyone not up to speed on this: http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm

And from wikipedia: Some audiophiles believe that the clipping behavior of vacuum tubes (especially when used with little or no negative feedback) is superior to that of transistors, in that vacuum tubes clip more gradually than transistors, resulting in harmonic distortion that is generally less objectionable. This gradual onset of clipping is known as gain compression or "soft clipping". Circuits can be designed using either tubes or transistors to achieve this effect, and the behavior can be simulated with digital processing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

Roger

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Sound reproduction is like real world. It is difficult to be everybody´s friend.

Good, small monitor sized speakers usually have low level of coloration and imagine well... due small cabinet... but need big powerful amps that are hard to design and expensive to produce.

Good, efficient floor standing speakers can be driven with less powerful amps that are easier to design... but big cabinets usually do not imagine like smaller ones and do produce more coloration due larger enclosure.

If only modest amount of power is needed, problems are usually easy to solve. However, if modest amount of power is not enough doubling or quadrupling power usually is not enough...

Kent... ra.ra... do you know were Scott amplifiers powered with dual primary power transformers or were European model equipped with 240VAC primary export transformers?

Best Regards

Kimmo

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Yes Roger, I agree, tubes are sweet and warm and probably less accurate than modern, excellent solid state amps, and so modern speakers vs. old AR 3. But real music is so accurate ? So detailed and glass-transparent as modern hi-fi systems? I mean classical music, real instruments. I live very close to the Auditorium of Music in Rome, designed by Renzo Piano, so very often I listen real concert- hall classical music . Real music isn't so accurate , but it's powerful and rich of bass and midbass notes that no one hi-fi speaker can imitate. However, AR 3 and 3a are the closest speaker to the global experience of real music , scaled-down as should be an home reproduction.

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Yes Roger, I agree, tubes are sweet and warm and probably less accurate than modern, excellent solid state amps, and so modern speakers vs. old AR 3. But real music is so accurate ? So detailed and glass-transparent as modern hi-fi systems? I mean classical music, real instruments. I live very close to the Auditorium of Music in Rome, designed by Renzo Piano, so very often I listen real concert- hall classical music . Real music isn't so accurate , but it's powerful and rich of bass and midbass notes that no one hi-fi speaker can imitate. However, AR 3 and 3a are the closest speaker to the global experience of real music , scaled-down as should be an home reproduction.

Yes, to paraphrase a comment made by someone else about his wife: "They have me right where I want to be" ... which is a pleasant feeling :)

Roger

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  • 3 weeks later...

Stumbled on this thread after being away for awhile. Have to admit it is one of the more fascinating ones. To add another story. Have owned AR3s for almost half a century. Started out with Dynaco PAS-3x, 120 combination, moved to early NAD (the 3020), then to Crown. Even Moved to PSB speakers for a few years when the ARs no longer sounded good (little did I know at the time it was the pots--wish this site had been alive then).

Several years ago hauled the old Dynacos and ARs out of the closet after discovering this site. Now my wife no longer wonders why we hauled around the ARs. Have since been tweaking the PAS to the point where I wonder if it is a PAS anymore. Probably six years ago I thought Tyson Tom had mentioned QSC pro amps, so have been driving the AR3s with a QSC ever since. Also have a heavily-modded AR TT (Sumiko arm, headshell, Rega motor, home built plinth). Kent's postings have now tweaked my interest as have the others. Have a friend with all Macintosh gear which sounds great, although out of my price range. Did get to spend some time with the last Macintosh authorized repair guys talking about amps for ARs. Thanks for all the info.

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  • 4 months later...

I recently picked up an Audionics CC-2 amplifier off Craigslist for $75. I have Audionics TL-50 (tramsmission Line) speakers and had researched the company when I got the speakers. It was a small company from Oregon that eventually morphed into Fosgate. They had some talent there come and go and this amp was one of their high points. They also have a very nice preamp. A couple other amps as well.

It runs 60-70 /channel and they are a very strong 60-70. HIgh current.

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Since becoming a new member of the AR 3 club, I've tried several amps with them, but the best has been a Crown XLS1000. Like Oldguide, all I needed was the endorsement of using a pro amp, and I was sold. I never thought a sub $200 pro amp would sound as good as a vintage Yamaha or Adcom, not to mention my tube stuff, but it really does. They just did something right with this little, light, seemingly cheap box and have turned out an amp that was made for these speakers.

Funny thing is, it probably never even crossed their minds that old fogies digging 50+ year old old speakers in their home systems would have a use for their amps.

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Hi.

Anyone used Carver's for your AR's?

Regards

Yes. Look for something else. I've had M1.0t and M500t; both modified to MkII. The M500t just doesn't do it with 4 ohm speakers. The M1.0t had the watts to drive them BUT at low volume the bass would disappear. Low damping factor is one reason.

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In the seventies my father used several high power amps to drive his AR 3a, LST , 10 Pi , I remember Marantz 240, Marantz 250M , a big and very dull McIntosh , I don' t remember the model but it was very big and heavy, Phase Linear 400 and 700B, SAE 2400L. Those amps are really bad sounding , in particular Phase Linear , very harsh. Many years ago I had a Dynaco ST-120, really a bad sounding amp. More recently, I used an Altec 9440A , a Soundcraftsmen LA 2502 and the Crown PSA-2 , this one it' s the best SS amp I've ever listened to , until last month. Then, after reading Tom Tyson ' s experience with modern pro amps , I decide to buy a QSC ISA 280 , a modern class AB power amp designed to drive low impedance loads . Well , this QSC outperforms easily the excellent ( but 35 years old ) Crown PSA-2 and the sound of vintage SS amps now seems to be only a nightmare . My AR speakers now reveals all their qualities at its best. I prefer this reliable , affordable and smooth-sounding pro amp over my tubes amps , it' s more detailed and transparent , dynamic and it shows an excellent stage, precise in width and depth. My advice is , let old vintage amps in your collection , and buy a modern pro amp like Crown or QSC to hear what you have been missing . My best wishes , Adriano

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Yes , we have Google but I 'm listening with my ears . Many friends of mine are enthusiast about Phase Linear sound , and I have friends enthusiastic of their Klipsch LaScalas. De gustibus non est disputandum. But my ears tells me PL sound it' s harsh , or probably PL it's not my cup of coffee. Surely and old design SS amp is unable to erogate high current on difficult , low impedance loads , with the exception of BGW 250, 500 and 750. Ciao, Adriano

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Also in Italy Phase Linear has a lot of fans since early seventies ,even today, at the time probably it was one of the few powerful amps, but it was 40 years ago. Did You ever listened to Crown PSA-2, or the marvelous BGW GTA/GTB ? Excellent sounding amplifiers, powerful and stable on every load, and the AR 3/ 3a are a very difficult load . Normally, hi-fi vintage equipments becomes obsolete , as it happens with TV , cameras , cars, airplanes, everything . Very few equipment survives to obsolescence, Marantz and McIntosh tube amplifiers and AR 3 / 3a speakers are still evergreen . Not so for early horn speakers or early SS amplifiers: I have a pair of Altec Valencias ( VOTT components with the addition of JBL 075 to refine highs ) , very dynamic and impressive, very funny with jazz or pop music, but their sound is absolutely obsolete , while AR 3 / 3a are still one of the best sounding, real hi-fi speakers of all times. I 'll be very pleased to listen to Your amps , Frank , and I hope to see You in Rome to hear my AR 3 and 3a with a modern , new pro amp ! Ciao , Adriano

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