Lovely pair of 303a's Washington area

[Carnivore]

Re-listing the speakers with good photos, a more detailed description, and a lot less hyperbole wouldn't hurt.

The AR-LST auction ended at $1525 + not-very-cheap shipping without meeting reserve so maybe you'll get your wish. Given the mix & match tweeter collection the seller should have taken that bid IMHO.

[DavidDru]

Sheesh, ended at $1125. Are they really that good?

[genek]

They're basically the last version AR made of the 3a, which often sells for that much for a pair in pristine condition. Plus there's a lot fewer of them, especially in rosewood veneer (most of the 303a's sold were in laminate finishes).

[owlsplace]

I'm not surprised, even higher actually but the alleged shill bidder chickened out at $1,100 -- no guts, no glory

[Aadams]

The sad thing is the online seller wins either way in these situations.If the shill overshoots the mark and wins, the seller has the option of going to the next highest bidder on the basis that the highest bidder was a no pay. It is difficult to spot a shill with only a 30 day history showing on each bidder but it is enough along with the bidding context to arouse suspicion. Also a smart seller would only use a shill judiciously and where there is real opportunity. In fact I would have looked like a shill in this one until I dropped out way before $700. In the end the speakers were taken by a lurker who did not even have the decency to introduce himself at any point before the clock dropped the gavel, something that cannot happen in live auctions and happens frequently on the site in question.

Adams

[owlsplace]

The sad thing is the online seller wins either way in these situations.If the shill overshoots the mark and wins, the seller has the option of going to the next highest bidder on the basis that the highest bidder was a no pay. It is difficult to spot a shill with only a 30 day history showing on each bidder but it is enough along with the bidding context to arouse suspicion. Also a smart seller would only use a shill judiciously and where there is real opportunity. In fact I would have looked like a shill in this one until I dropped out way before $700. In the end the speakers were taken by a lurker who did not even have the decency to introduce himself at any point before the clock dropped the gavel, something that cannot happen in live auctions and happens frequently on the site in question.

Adams

I didn't think about the second chance bit ... the perils of online auctions -- I put up a two volume set of the "Spectator" years ago and I think they went for $50 but the high bidder refused to pay because I mentioned the autographs from the original owner, "William Hickok," belonged to a dentist who was taken off a stagecoach and shot in a case of mistaken identity. Apparently the shooter thought he was "Wild Bill." The buyer couldn't substantiate that and since he was a purveyor of rare signatures he refused to pay for the auction. I still have the books

Roger

[owlsplace]

And along comes a "plain-jane" version "303" not "a's" -- not sure what the difference was -- in Vestal, NY, reserve not met currently at $405 -- 391137323737

update: What a difference a little rosewood veneer makes -- the black pair stayed below the reserve and did not sell.

[lakecat]

Aadams, on 06 May 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

The sad thing is the online seller wins either way in these situations.If the shill overshoots the mark and wins, the seller has the option of going to the next highest bidder on the basis that the highest bidder was a no pay. It is difficult to spot a shill with only a 30 day history showing on each bidder but it is enough along with the bidding context to arouse suspicion. Also a smart seller would only use a shill judiciously and where there is real opportunity. In fact I would have looked like a shill in this one until I dropped out way before $700. In the end the speakers were taken by a lurker who did not even have the decency to introduce himself at any point before the clock dropped the gavel, something that cannot happen in live auctions and happens frequently on the site in question.

Adam

How do you see the history of bidders when they are masked from the onlookers? With over a hundred bids only among a few bidders, I smell something very fishy with this auction.

[lakecat]

owlsplace, on 14 May 2015 - 3:36 PM, said:

And along comes a "plain-jane" version "303" not "a's" -- not sure what the difference was -- in Vestal, NY, reserve not met currently at $405 -- 391137323737

AR-303.20150514.jpg

update: What a difference a little rosewood veneer makes -- the black pair stayed below the reserve and did not sell.

The "A" just means it is a biamp model is all. This pair had terrible pictures and was chipped a little. If I didn't already have a pair of the black laminates, I would have tried to get these. I sold my AR3's and some extra 3a's I had because I like these more. Because it handles way more power than it's ancestors, it can sound more dynamic and robust even at lower volume. At higher volume, it simply kicks ass. The mids and tweeters are exceptional and make an excellent soundstage.

I hope to find a rosewood pair someday. I can't imagine four of these set up!..

[Aadams]

How do you see the history of bidders when they are masked from the onlookers? With over a hundred bids only among a few bidders, I smell something very fishy with this auction.

Lakecat

Was your question rhetorical or interrogative?

Adams

[owlsplace]

owlsplace, on 14 May 2015 - 3:36 PM, said:

And along comes a "plain-jane" version "303" not "a's" -- not sure what the difference was -- in Vestal, NY, reserve not met currently at $405 -- 391137323737

AR-303.20150514.jpg

update: What a difference a little rosewood veneer makes -- the black pair stayed below the reserve and did not sell.

The "A" just means it is a biamp model is all. This pair had terrible pictures and was chipped a little. If I didn't already have a pair of the black laminates, I would have tried to get these. I sold my AR3's and some extra 3a's I had because I like these more. Because it handles way more power than it's ancestors, it can sound more dynamic and robust even at lower volume. At higher volume, it simply kicks ass. The mids and tweeters are exceptional and make an excellent soundstage.

I hope to find a rosewood pair someday. I can't imagine four of these set up!..

Okay, I looked at the specs and they were both the same -- so is it a switch-type bi-amp set up?

The Black Lam 303's are back up with a BIN $500 plus freight. Someone is also parting out an LST-2, smart move I guess if you only have one unit.

The bid thing -- Bid History -- Bidder -- will show a 30-day anonymous bid history usually with multiple sellers in various categories. If it only shows bids with one seller they are suspect shill bidders. Since you only see 30 days it is rather limited; however, this is much preferred to the way they used to operate which entailed a massive invasion of privacy.

Roger

[lakecat]

Aadams, on 19 May 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

How do you see the history of bidders when they are masked from the onlookers? With over a hundred bids only among a few bidders, I smell something very fishy with this auction.

Lakecat

Was your question rhetorical or interrogative?

Adams

Not either.....it was from ignorance of Ebay policies. I never knew you could simply click on bidders names to get info....duh. Never tried it since their name being protected, I thought one could find no useful info on the fake numbers. I strictly sell by Buy It Now or Best Offer so I only look up the bidder then that is bidding on my item......so never worried about these auctions. I buy very litle from Ebay.

[lakecat]

owlsplace, on 19 May 2015 - 2:41 PM, said:

Okay, I looked at the specs and they were both the same -- so is it a switch-type bi-amp set up?

The Black Lam 303's are back up with a BIN $500 plus freight. Someone is also parting out an LST-2, smart move I guess if you only have one unit.

The bid thing -- Bid History -- Bidder -- will show a 30-day anonymous bid history usually with multiple sellers in various categories. If it only shows bids with one seller they are suspect shill bidders. Since you only see 30 days it is rather limited; however, this is much preferred to the way they used to operate which entailed a massive invasion of privacy.

Roger

I didn't catch this until I saw the sale again this morning but he was to use freight to ship those speakers? That is why everyone is passing.

[lakecat]

lakecat, on 20 May 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

owlsplace, on 19 May 2015 - 2:41 PM, said:owlsplace, on 19 May 2015 - 2:41 PM, said:

Okay, I looked at the specs and they were both the same -- so is it a switch-type bi-amp set up?

The Black Lam 303's are back up with a BIN $500 plus freight. Someone is also parting out an LST-2, smart move I guess if you only have one unit.

The bid thing -- Bid History -- Bidder -- will show a 30-day anonymous bid history usually with multiple sellers in various categories. If it only shows bids with one seller they are suspect shill bidders. Since you only see 30 days it is rather limited; however, this is much preferred to the way they used to operate which entailed a massive invasion of privacy.

Roger

I didn't catch this until I saw the sale again this morning but he was to use freight to ship those speakers? That is why everyone is passing.

They are back.......freight charging was too high I bet.......crazy.

[DavidR]

I saw those but wasn't sure if they were the same speakers

[owlsplace]

Well, someone within driving distance will grab them eventually.

These are located in central NY on the PA border -- a four hour drive from my home town.

Maybe you can talk RoyC into picking them up -- only two and a half hour drive for him When I moved west in the late 70s I put a classified ad in Stereo Review for all my equipment and someone drove up from Jersey and bought most of it.

The auction site takes a nice piece of change every time these are listed though.

Roger

[ar_pro]

They're at Audio Classics - an absolutely first-rate company that's very well-known for McIntosh audio sales & service.

If the speakers are on display in one of their showrooms, I'm surprised that they haven't been sold.

$500 is not a bad price at all!

[Aadams]

This seems like an appropriate place for this post. I did not want to start another thread.
When I first started accumulating AR speakers several years ago, my ideal was to have one pair each of the 3a and 303a. I found that 303s for sale were rare while other ARs were more available and the short version of this story is, now I don’t hunger 303s but I do still watch when they come up for sale on the “auction site”.
The present listing for the black AR303s on the “auction site” has been up for weeks now. The asking price of $500 seems to be on the high limit of “reasonable” in my opinion. Contrast this with the frenzy over a “Rosewood” pair just a couple of weeks before that ended at over $1100 dollars.
I know that the 303 is touted as a highly evolved 3a but it actually seems to me to have more in common with the 58s. Performance differences are slight. The 303 can apparently produce solid bass 6 hz lower than the 58s and it was designed as a mirror imaged pair. The 303a can be bi amped.
One important similarity is neither speaker has mid or tweet attenuation controls. The paradox here is that on the 58s lack of controls is considered a design flaw and on the 303 it is never mentioned as a problem. I think both speakers would need an equalizer to make them tolerable for real world listening venues. I know the 58s does.
I have never heard a 303 but all of the quality AR speakers I have heard have a similar character. Is the 303 really a better speaker than the 58s? It may be when measured in absolute objective terms but except in an AB test it is probably, in practical terms, indistinguishable from the 58s. The 58s sells for much less than a 303 when they come up for sale and both are flawed for the lack of output controls. On the plus side, if it matters, the 303 does come in Rosewood or Black Laminate whereas the 58s is adorned only in walnut veneer.

[tysontom]

Aadams,

The AR-303 was not designed to produce particularly deeper bass than the AR-58s, as both speakers have nearly the same system resonance frequency within a Hertz or two. The AR-303 has a system resonance of 41 Hz whereas the AR-58 has a system resonance of 43 Hz., very similar for all of the AR speakers using the 200003-0 and 1200003-series 12-inch woofer.

The AR-303 was described as having a -3 db bass limit of 32 Hz and the AR-58s was described with a -3 dB bass limit of 37 Hz, so there would seem to be a technical advantage to the AR-303 in low-bass output; however, the 303 has a slight (intentional) rise in output beginning at just above resonance, giving it somewhat more output at resonance -- relative to the mid-range frequencies -- than the AR-58s. However, the ultimate low-frequency output of both speakers is very close when both are compared side-by-side, and it would be difficult telling them apart in the octaves below 500 Hz. once the levels were equalized for both speakers. The 303 is also less efficient than the AR-58s; also, the AR-58s has a relatively low "Q" of 0.6, insofar as it was designed to be used on the floor as well as a shelf. This lower Q would prevent "heaviness" or "boominess" with the woofer so close to the floor boundary.

As for mid-range and treble balance and level controls, both of these speakers have some built-in equalization to produce smooth, even output from all drivers, and the balance is superior to that of the old AR-3a, which did have level controls. Level controls were thus thought to be superfluous in these newer speakers. The difference, of course, is that the newer speakers have significantly more output from the tweeters to compensate for the attenuation of the original AR-3a tweeter.

The attached graph shows the measured difference between an AR-3a and an AR-303a, measured at AR's Benicia, California plant in the early 1990s. Both speakers are very similar -- particularly in the deep bass, but the differences are there, with the output from the 303 being significantly more balanced than the AR-3a. I think the 58s would fall between these two speakers.

--Tom Tyson

[lakecat]

Speaking of value, $500 for that pair was a fair price for the quality of speaker you get. I would have bought them but the sellers intent of shipping freight killed it for me....and others as well as it never sold. Just too expensive.

As far as sound....well...I have had four sets AR3's and seven sets of AR3a's come thru here...and sold all but my sentimental favs (first set of 3a's and the Heathkit 103a's) after listening to the 303's.