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Veneer Replacement


DavidDru

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So while I patiently await a replacement midrange driver for my AR3, I am going to get the cabinets under control. One of them has a really bad top where the veneer simply needs to be replaced. I believe it sat on that end on a concrete floor for years and thee was enough moisture to wreak havoc over time.

I have never done any veneering so I took it to a local refinishing place to see what they thought. They can re-veneer that top and refinish both cabs for $150! Sand them lightly, take off all the old gunk and build-up, remove any imperfections, and fix a couple dented corners. I guess for them thats childs play so at that rate I will have them do it. He did a few other things for me and they have all turned out great including a very difficult Haywood Wakefield table.

What can you guys that are in the know tell me about the walnut veneer. I know the original veneer is probably older wood than what is generally around today, but what insight should I pass on to him about matching it up? They know their craft, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to provide info if available. I do have that veneer finish piece from AR to give them.

Thanks. I will try to get him to take some photos along the way or something so I can post what he might do. I would typical do this type of work myself, but since these are 3's I dont wont leave anything less than it can be. Sort of like having the famous RoyC restore my drivers! Leaving no stone left unturned. Only the best for these babies.

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Yeah, I know. I hesitated admitting I was sourcing them out but i figured most would agree that that price is hard to say no to. Plus they are a lot better than me at that work and so since they are 3's.....

I just want to make sure if there is something about the veneer I should know that you guys could give me some insight to pass on.

Also, do we think the original finishing was straight up BLO?

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Just tell them to try to match old grains. No big deal if they can't as veneers will have various graining but all of the veeners will have the walnut look. I would ask if they are using plain veneer that has to be contact glued on or the backing veneers that are are applied with heat. I think I would prefer the plain veneer but for that price, I wouldn't argue!...:)

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Here's another thought: The AR-3 was available in a variety of finishes. Look at the attached pic (courtesy of Tom Tyson) and consult the cabinet guy. Mahogany, cherry or teak may be nice. The mahogany was lacquered (I have some 2a's in that finish). The walnut was originally lacquered or oiled, with oil being more common (I think).

Although AR used BLO I think most here prefer Watco Danish Oil. One problem with BLO is you have to re-apply it once a year or so.

Attached is a pdf file (probably also from TT) from AR on how to finish the various veneers.

Good luck with the resto.

-Kent

post-101828-0-88007800-1426088408_thumb.

applying furniture finishes.pdf

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Thanks guys. it will be interesting to see what they suggest. When I asked if I should or could do anything to them prior to their work he said not to bother and that because it will be fresh veneer on the one top side only, they would likely have to add some color in whatever finish is applied to get it to match anyway. This includes on a couple chips they will patch on a couple other corners. I told him that it appears based on the original AR info we have seen and have discussed that the oil rubbed finish was just a straight BLO. He said he would be surprised if it was that simple and that maybe it was BLO with some additives beyond the usual turpentine. We agreed that once they had it repaired and stripped/sanded down that we would take another look and assess what to do. Like you say JKent, since they are stripped down, now is the time to consider something special. I think they could actually do a top clear coat of some sort on them that would still appear like an oil rubbed finish. Maybe more like the KLH finish is.

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Since Geoff posted his proposed project I've been watching the Behlen videos on youtube. To do a first-class refinish you really need to be up to speed before starting rather than trying to adjust afterwards.

They have some nice products but costs add up quickly.

I'm tempted to order their DVD: http://www.shellac.net/wood-finish-repair-DVD.html

Roger

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Since Geoff posted his proposed project I've been watching the Behlen videos on youtube. To do a first-class refinish you really need to be up to speed before starting rather than trying to adjust afterwards.

They have some nice products but costs add up quickly.

I'm tempted to order their DVD: http://www.shellac.net/wood-finish-repair-DVD.html

Roger

Might be a well spent $10.

This hobby is as much about the cabinets at times as it is teh audio parts if we are talking about actual restoration.

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At today's labor rates, if it takes them any longer than four hours to do the job, they're probably losing money. It's a bargain for good craftsmanship.

As far as matching the grains, not going to happen. The quality of walnut veneer available today is nowhere near as good as what was available 40 years ago. Your new veneer will inevitably have more sections and a less figured grain, because it's coming from much younger trees. But as long as they get the color right, eventually you will get used to it. Refinishing both cabinets together is definitely the right thing to do.

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Genuine walnut, teak and mahogany would be hard to source these days. As far as I remember there are about 100 tree varietyes that are constantly sold as mahogany, but are not related mahogany anyhow. Some wood work manual also specified walnut to be generic term for any dark colored wood these days.

Anyhow good wood suppliers can supply good veneer even these days. I am enclosing picture about cabs of Kef Cantatas I made few years ago. I bought veneer from local supplier. They made large enough veneer sheets (they made also veneer joints) from 1,6 mm veneer and total cost was something like 100E... which I found reasonable, as there was no need to buy any extra veneer for large cabs and actually making tight veneer seam is the hardest part of the veneering. Absolutely all PVA glue stayed between MDF and veneer... so quality of wood and seams were good enough. Veneer sheets had been approx 20 cm wide... not these 7-10 cm wide you quite often see in commercially made cabs. Also grain matching was very nice, even I do not know what wood was sold as walnut...

Next to Cantata you will see AR2ax cab. I suppose that the original veneer is mahogany. I stripped original finish and applied several coats BLO, Cabs are not perfect... but clean veneer with fresh coat of BLO is quite much nicer than faded and dirty original finish.

Best Regards

Kimmo

post-126436-0-16482300-1426353154_thumb.

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So I am refinishing some Sansui SP200 cabinets as sort of a trial run for working on more expensive cabinets. These are actually very nice looking and sanded up very easily.

I have cleaned up just about all the scratches and such in sanding them starting with 150 and following with 180 sand paper on my way to 220. The only thing I can not get are a couple deeper gouge type scratches. Any suggestions? I did put a hot steam iron on it to try and raise it a bit but it did not get it as well as I thought it might be able to. Should I just ignore it and hope when I apply the oil that is does not show up too much?

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So I am refinishing some Sansui SP200 cabinets as sort of a trial run for working on more expensive cabinets. These are actually very nice looking and sanded up very easily.

I have cleaned up just about all the scratches and such in sanding them starting with 150 and following with 180 sand paper on my way to 220. The only thing I can not get are a couple deeper gouge type scratches. Any suggestions? I did put a hot steam iron on it to try and raise it a bit but it did not get it as well as I thought it might be able to. Should I just ignore it and hope when I apply the oil that is does not show up too much?

David,

If you can't raise it you should fill it. A few options there depending on how large it is. Or swing it by the guy doing your AR-3 cabs :)

Roger

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David,

If you can't raise it you should fill it. A few options there depending on how large it is. Or swing it by the guy doing your AR-3 cabs :)

Roger

Yeah, I have about 5 odds-n-ends like that I would like them to look at and give me ideas on how to go about fixing.

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For Mr. Head

ARC SP6 upgraded to SP6C spec/D76A is my favorite vintage valve amp combination. H/K Citation 15 is nice vintage solid state tuner. H/K Citation 11/12 combination is not visible... but they are also nice amplifiers and seem to match very well to AR2ax.

For David

One thing I have learned from sanding... do not try to sand deep scars 100% away... since 50´s most veneer is so thin that it is too easy to sand trough. Few light scars look quite much better than chipboard visible trough very thin layer of veneer. I have done this twice.

Best Regards

Kimmo

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  • 4 weeks later...

Not sure. Can't recall what he said they would do other than some sanding. I will find out.

For cabs that are just aged and maybe only a little scratched up and have the typical build-up of years of wax, grime, pledge, smoke, whatever that might be making the finish appear dark and dull, he suggested just using some 400 grit wet/dry sand paper with some mineral spirits to clean and get all that off while taking out the little imperfections. Then apply more BLO.

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The iron trick only works on real wood.....not veneer....too thin to raise any cells. Deeper scratches that run with grain, I sand them down pretty good with 150 ...then 220, then prep for stain.....and apply stain and then rub stain over scratches with fine steel wool....always rubbing with grain......wipe down....let dry and then spray first coal of satin poly. Scratches still showing with grain, I then fill with walnut epoxy and let dry. I then sand everything again with 400....wipe down and then apply second coat of poly, Any scratches still showing, I can usually use fine marker pens in black and brown to fudge in grain over scratches.....and then spray last coat of poly. Works pretty damn well.

The deep scratches against the grain are a bear to remove and usually will show but fudging some with pens will help sometimes.

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The larger grain features are not too bad a match. The big difference between old and new is that the new wood has very few pores (the streaks in between the grain whorls) because it's from a tree with fewer years on it, and the seam where two pieces have been bookjoined (the older speaker top is a single piece with no seams in the veneer). It's also easy to see that the entire top of the reveneered speaker is veneer while the older one is veneer meeting up with the solid wood face frame at the front.

If you want to minimize the differences between the two speakers, you'll probably want to use some stain and make them more like the dark brown 70s speakers than the medium reddish-brown 60s finish. That will make the seams and the pores less prominent.

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