owlsplace Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Can anyone look at this photo and tell me if this is an original driver setup for the Ar-4x model? Later version?Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyC Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Can anyone look at this photo and tell me if this is an original driver setup for the Ar-4x model? Later version?AR4x.01.jpgRogerIt is definitely not a later (or perhaps any) version of an AR-4x. It appears more like an AR-4, given the early cross-hatched woofer and the grill over the tweeter. Actually I have never seen a 4x with a grill over the tweeter.Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Take a look at this threadhttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7974Be sure to click the link on Post #1. Lots of photos.The AR-4 apparently had those odd "square" frame woofers and, as Roy mentioned, the tweeter grille.ra.ra. has written about the AR4 several times.-Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Aha, I was thinking ADS/Braun woofers maybe. So those are foam surrounds or cloth?But, and a big but, they have a 4x label on the back and a serial around 29,000. They are on the auction site and going for fairly high $$$.Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Looks like they cranked out a few of these. Here is a post from a few years back: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=4152 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 You rang? (Long before Lurch became famous for this phrase, it originated with Maynard G. Krebs.) Roger, I saw these pop up for sale and also became curious about this oddity. Those woofers are original and definitely cloth surrounds, and with that basket shape and cross-hatching (I had originally thought this was simply surround dope which has been brush-applied to slightly increase cone mass - - it was also sometimes applied in a floral curlicue fashion), this is indeed the woofer that was used in the earlier AR-4, as Roy has already pointed out. However, this woofer did show up in some AR-4x speakers - - here is a 4x thread that I started where Roy solved the puzzle in post 23. The serial numbers are 38XXX, and this speaker used the AR-4 woofer but the more common AR-4x tweeter, as well as an odd crossover circuit.http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=7798 Another thread about the very same speaker you post about is attached here. Clearly, the confusion lies somewhere between the paper label, which says AR-4x, and the tweeter, which suggests AR-4. Tom Tyson clarifies the woofer damping in this thread. The crossover assembly for this particular speaker is never identified. http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=4152 Final point here, but apparently Kent's memory is becoming nearly as soft as my own , which sometimes I think has started to resemble rock wool cabinet stuffing. This image is from a document Kent sent to me some time ago (entitled "AR4x comparison"), which shows your very same speaker with nearly identical serial numbers. My sense of this is that there were a few odd permutations of the 4-series speaker as it morphed from the AR-4 to the AR-4x. In the 28XXX to 33XXX serial numbers, the 4x appears to have employed drivers very similar to the AR-4, but by the time the s/n's reached 38XXX, the tweeter had been updated but the AR-4 woofers were still in use. Lastly, I do really love my AR-4's, but some of these speakers are fetching crazy cash-ola. edit: looks like you found the same thread I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Whadya know. Guess I DID send that document Inconceivable! (Princess Bride reference). Who woulda thunk the lowly AR-4 would command such prices? As ra.ra. shows, a pair sold recently for $515 and some are now "asking" as much as $700!4x's are selling for over $300, with one pair in original boxes going for $676! And we thought the AR-3 prices were nuts.I have an emotional attachment to the 4x's I bought in 1969 (for $88/pr) but if prices go any higher I may sell them! I mean really, the 4x is a nice little speaker for a hundred bux a pair, but for THOSE prices there are many better speakers. The Avid 100 is probably better except for the crappy vinyl cabs (but you can drop the drivers right into the 4x cab. Thanks Roy) and they go for under $100/pr. The 2ax is certainly better (running 100 to 500) Several KLH models such as the outstanding Fives (250 to 500) or the modest Seventeens (about $100) are as good as or better than the 4x.You can fill in the blank: Best vintage speakers under $500/pr are _________. I'm sure there will be MANY entries! Or try "under $200". That apparently rules out the 4x but there are LOTS of vintage speaker gems even at bargain prices.-Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well, guess I'll have to rethink my choice for a vintage pair of two-ways Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well, guess I'll have to rethink my choice for a vintage pair of two-ways RogerNah, it just depends on where you want to position yourself as you play the game of supply and demand.Or of course your level of patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well, guess I'll have to rethink my choice for a vintage pair of two-ways Not to rub it in, but I've bought AR 3's for $50 from a CSP member (put a lot of work and $$ into them though), 91s on CL for $75. Both of those of course are FAR superior to the 4/4x and I'm using both now. Paid about $150 for some nice little Bozak MB-80s that will be a gift to someone and my beautiful Cizek KA-1s were fairly cheap (although the restoration drove the cost up to about $500)..Lately it seems there are a lot of "pickers/flippers" in this neck of the woods so you can be sure major name brands will get snapped up but the lesser-known brands can still be good deals. Sometimes you can find "little-knowns" in thrift stores for ridiculous prices. Anything Canadian is usually excellent--I bought some nice Image speakers for $5. Some Pinnacles (made in NY) were $7. Found some nice Sylvania acoustic suspension speakers with 8" CTS cloth-surround woofers for $7. A pair of Celestion Impact 20s were $12 at Goodwill. Bought some EPIs cheap on CL. The hunt can be part of the fun, along with the restoration.-Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 About that 4x speaker that Roger was asking about - - - it does remain something of a mystery, particularly since the major revision from the 4 to the 4x was the development of the improved tweeter (see pic attached). One last thought: is it possible that the tweeter in the OP's post is actually the newer 4x tweeter with added surplus parts (metal grille, donut of felt) left over from the terminated production of the earlier 4 tweeter?Despite the fact that we are bemoaning the overinflated prices that some of these speakers appear to fetch, it is still very possible to find restorable pairs at a fair price - - particularly with the AR-4x, which was so prevalent and produced for many years. And while the expansive online e-tail sources bring the world's marketplace to our fingertips, it often does not provide the buyer with the best cost value. David is correct that supply and demand are obvious factors, and both of these do change over time, even on that auction site, at least from what I have observed. He is also correct that for any search of a particular item, patience is often a necessary trait, especially when pursuing "collectibles".I also agree with Kent that the hunt can often be a lot of fun and become one step in the enjoyment of restoring old loudspeakers, particularly when it is a case of making the proverbial silk purse from the lowly sow's ear. Further, he has highlighted some exceptional personal transactions as encouraging examples of great "finds" that can be had on a lucky day, while also mentioning a few very good smaller speaker models which might serve as viable options for one seeking some simple two-ways.Even though I reside in the virtual shadow of the AR (and KLH and Advent) manufacturing site, it's not as if there are pairs of vintage AR's for sale on every street corner here. Conversely, I've been very impressed with the speakers that people like Roger and David, from far more remote western locales, have been procuring and sharing with us on this site, and it just goes to show, you never know what's going to turn up ..... or where ..... or when.Roger, having read about your work and interest and knowledge with your pairs of AR-5's, I remain convinced you'd get a kick out of owning a nice pair of simple AR-4x speakers, and I think if you continue to keep your eyes peeled, a pair will come your way at an affordable price before too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxho Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 I still see sought-after speakers reasonably priced at my favorite thrift stores.I would call it a consistent trickle. The first pair I found 20 years ago- AR2s-started me in this whole vintage speaker thing.These are purchases in the last 6 months.2ax: $502a: $30Old/original Large Advent: $35They all needed some level of work, but it's easy to justify when startingthis inexpensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 About that 4x speaker that Roger was asking about - - - it does remain something of a mystery, particularly since the major revision from the 4 to the 4x was the development of the improved tweeter (see pic attached). One last thought: is it possible that the tweeter in the OP's post is actually the newer 4x tweeter with added surplus parts (metal grille, donut of felt) left over from the terminated production of the earlier 4 tweeter?...Roger, having read about your work and interest and knowledge with your pairs of AR-5's, I remain convinced you'd get a kick out of owning a nice pair of simple AR-4x speakers, and I think if you continue to keep your eyes peeled, a pair will come your way at an affordable price before too long. 4, 4x tweeters.jpgYes, patience is a virtue when looking for collectibles. I think the cloth surround version is getting the higher price these days.Agree that I would enjoy the 4x Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 So the AR-4xa has a crossover switch instead of the pot? There is a pair on the auction site -- one is from Cambridge and other from Norwood. Looks like one has a pot and the other has a switch on the crossover. One woofer has the ripples and the other doesn't.The 4x's mention in the first post are at $358 with less than 2hrs to go.Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 All of those drivers are indeed original to the AR-4xa, and at some point the model did change from the pot control (early) to the switch (later), but I believe both versions were tested to the exact same standards before leaving the factory. Coincidental or not, but it seems like some revisions within a particular speaker model nearly paralleled the corporate move from Cambridge to Norwood, although I am sure there are many exceptions (and/or challenges) to this general notion.The tweeters in those two 4xa's appear fully identical, and each of those woofer types was found in both the 4x and the 4xa (see pic), before the last 4xa's began to implement a foam surround woofer. Also, the crossovers of these two versions were nearly identical - - - each used a #5 coil and a 10uf cap.Despite the minor differences of the two speakers in this "mismatched pair" of 4xa's, I would like to think that with a little bit of TLC and observant restoration (pot and caps, what else?), these might very well make a fully complimentary and excellent "pair" of stereo speakers with regards to performance. Final point(s) about cosmetics: I think the grille cloths will clean up easily (no obvious holes or fabric snags, just some discoloration) and the badges should also polish up to near-new condition. But the cabinets, it's hard to tell. It appears at least one may very well be the faux-walnut vinyl, and perhaps even both of them.Just when you begin to think you might understand the vintage AR formulaic recipes, another permutation will pop up somewhere. Some members here will state that any speaker with a label stating "walnut grained" is clad in vinyl, but that is not always the case. I have a pair of late version AR-6's with this label, but indeed the cabinets are clad with real wood veneer. IMO, this issue would be worth clarifying before placing a bid. edit: for future reference, the second pic here is the pair of 4xa speakers being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKent Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 Just when you begin to think you might understand the vintage AR formulaic recipes, another permutation will pop up somewhere.With all due respect to our late friend Zilch, the AR-4x's in Post #9 here are just....wrong. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268997Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted February 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 Not to rub it in, but I've bought AR 3's for $50 from a CSP member (put a lot of work and $$ into them though), 91s on CL for $75. Both of those of course are FAR superior to the 4/4x and I'm using both now. Paid about $150 for some nice little Bozak MB-80s that will be a gift to someone and my beautiful Cizek KA-1s were fairly cheap (although the restoration drove the cost up to about $500)..Lately it seems there are a lot of "pickers/flippers" in this neck of the woods so you can be sure major name brands will get snapped up but the lesser-known brands can still be good deals. Sometimes you can find "little-knowns" in thrift stores for ridiculous prices. Anything Canadian is usually excellent--I bought some nice Image speakers for $5. Some Pinnacles (made in NY) were $7. Found some nice Sylvania acoustic suspension speakers with 8" CTS cloth-surround woofers for $7. A pair of Celestion Impact 20s were $12 at Goodwill. Bought some EPIs cheap on CL. The hunt can be part of the fun, along with the restoration.-KentVintage ARs grow on trees in your neck of the woods, Kent. Anyway, I'm seeing a pair of AR-6's locally. Any ARs locally are a rare event around here. I'll see if I can get them for a reasonable price and make a short roadtrip to pick them up. Always fun to get out and about.UPDATE: Bought the 6's -- Unfinished Pine (really unfinished) -- original fabric -- low 30K #s. Had to pay more than I wanted but they will be delivered.Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Well looky here, another example of the odd drivers just like Rogers. Serial number 35807 pine. Crappy cherry stain and lacquer finish that is going to come off. Only one speaker. Otherwise they work fine other than the rougher than hell pot.For gods sake, would somebody please contract out getting our old pots made once again!Grilles came off once I pried the little white staples out. No glue challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 That's a nice rare bird, and it certainly looks totally original - - does your paperwork say AR-4x? My pair of 4x's with the non-round woofer basket are in the s/n 38XXX range. When you get to it, please post some pics of the innards - - - stuffing, crossover components, driver polarity ... that sort of thing. Here is the schematic of my similar pair - - only apparent difference is that mine have the full padding over the tweeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Yep, 4x. Shall do.Wow, a 20 and a 24? Two large values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted April 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Yep, 4x. Shall do.Wow, a 20 and a 24? Two large values.Is that the speaker you picked up recently to go with your orphan? Just curious what shape the cloth surround is in -- stiff or soft? The early 4's have been selling for high $$$ on the auction site lately. Get ready for some rock wool stuffing ...The AR-6 xovers have a 24mfd cap across the woofer plus a 10Ω resistor in parallel and a 10mfd in series with the tweeter. Just recapped one today.The HK pots came in today -- 25w 15Ω -- but a bit larger than the A-P pots plus they have open backs like the Ohmite's. I'll put them in some 6's and see how they do.Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 No, that's the orphan that I was given for free! Just getting around to opening it up. The finish had me scared off until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlsplace Posted April 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 No, that's the orphan that I was given for free! Just getting around to opening it up. The finish had me scared off until now.So what is the condition of the cloth surround? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidDru Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 So what is the condition of the cloth surround?Seems fine. It passes the finger test okay. Could probably benefit from a little of the sealant. Interestingly enough, some of the mortite came through the mounting screw holes originally and is pressing up against the surround a bit at all four screws. I wouldn't think that to be prefered. I am the first ever behind the grille so that helps matters I am sure. We may bitch about how difficult these AR grilles are to deal with but I wonder how many are better off for it. On the other hand, wonder how many were not fixed or refoamed because of it and just tossed along the way. Not a new thought on here I am sure.I ordered some of the LPads (and resistors) from Erse and have those to try. $3.59 ea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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