HK Citation II for AR 3s. Couple ?s.

[stupidhead]

Hi folks. Let me start by saying I have never owned a tube amp so a lot of this is mystery stuff to me. A while back I picked up a set of 3s which I have not dug into yet due to not having a proper amp for them, plus I have a bunch of other projects ahead of them to sell some speakers to fund the amp purchase. An acquaintance has an HK Citation II amp that has had a little work done to it. Please see attached pdf for details of the work done. The HK described in the attachment is the unit I am considering. The work done is interesting, but not sure if it is what should be done. Can I expect that there is yet more that should be done to refurb the amp to a level I can be comfortable with.

I went over to the seller's house yesterday and auditioned the amp with a set of 5s he has. I brought a refurbished Marantz 2230 as pre-amp for this demo. I was pleased with the sound but somehow expected it to be louder given my volume dial setting on the 2230. This likely speaks to my ignorance of tube amps and their performance. The sound was very rich.

I have a down payment towards a purchase price just under $2k. Am I in over my head? Everything I read about this amp indicates it to be one of the best, but I am a bit nervous about the whole thing.

Geoff

RadioNews_v2_2015_edited.pdf

[iso]

Citation combo including pre amp, power amp and tuner including any of I,II,III,IV or V models has been on my wish list to for long time. Unfortunately cap re stuffing is not enough for local electricity, power transformer cases has to be re stuffed too with rebuilt transformers with 230V primaries. Later solid state Citation 11,12,15 & 17 amps and tuners have been very easy to rebuild and they have been quite easy to find in good physical condition. Unfortunately it is not easy to find nice looking early Citation including solid state Citation A and B. Rebuilding amplifier with dented and oxidized case is not my cup of tea. This is of course personal opinion. I would say that recapped Citation II close 2K is not bargain, but price might be correct if the chassis is in good condition.

Re volume setting... it might be beneficial if sensitivity of power amp is low as this will improve signal to noise ratio of set. In 80´s when CD players did arrive many US amp makers began to use higher 0,5V sensitivity for full output, which was common in Europe. Power amp sensitivity is not guarantee for good quality, but matching pre amp and power amp gains (sensitivity) is one important issue in system matching. There is no point to have so much gain that you have to attenuate it too much. I would say that system gain is good enough if your volume control settings are usually between 12 and 3` clock.

I can not say how suitable H/K is for AR3... but if 8 ohm tap was used for AR5 4 ohm tap should have enough urge for AR3, even coupling between primary of output transformer is usually better to higher ohmage output taps. After all... if your ears will tell that this is amp for you, maybe you should follow your heart.

You should also remember that that most components of 50 year old amplifier have passed their best before dates. Personally I would also do only cleaning, recap and usual safety checks for amp and if other issues do arise, I would sort them when they do arise. It is difficult to tell how often they will arise as many Citations were built from kits, and therefore quality of construction is variable.

Best Regards

Kimmo

PS have you ever considered later Citation 11,12,14,15,16,17,18 & 19... they are dirt cheap in US and easy to work

[DavidDru]

Have you checked http://www.mcshanedesign.net/

This too. http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/CitationRestoration.html

I'll have some more for you shortly.

[ar_pro]

stupidhead -

The Citation II is a very well-regarded vintage amplifier - often mentioned with the Marantz 8B, and the McIntosh MC275; and $2000 is significantly less than you'd have to pay for either the less-powerful Marantz or the (slightly) more powerful Mac.

That said, using a 55 year-old tube amplifier as a daily driver might be more of a challenge than you'd want to take on - especially if you're new to the game, and maybe not so experienced in doing the work yourself.

Many of the tube-guys that I've known have started out with Dyna equipment, like the Stereo 70 or the mono Mark III amplifiers. They're very easy to work on, relatively cheap, and parts are plentiful; also, they're quite respectable performers. Take one apart and put it back together using the original assembly manual, and your knowledge of tube amplification will increase about a million percent.

If you're in love with the Citation, would there be any way that you'd be able to have the restorer be your go-to guy if a problem should arise?

[DavidDru]

I reached out to a fellow audio enthusiast that mostly hovers around tube stuff to see what his take would be and this is what he replied:

"Citation II is a monster, and can handle anything when restored..lifting one is almost a two person lift because of those monstrous Freed Transformers. 4 OHM and lower is not a problem..

Jim McShane's uncle (or father can't re-call) worked on the AR3's and at one time I was going to rebuild a set so I asked Jim if the deuce would power them, he said they are a great match.. should be fine.."

"It's a tall order to top the deuce. Stewart H. was way ahead of his time, there is no design like the Citation II with the nested and extended feedback loops. That amp will reach into Haiti's and play it back as clear as anything you could imagine... rebuilt I have never been able to clip it.."

I think you are on to something, especially rebuilt.

I am in communication with this enthusiast buddy of mine on an HK1 preamp he is selling that is just unbelievable. For now it is out of my price league.

Hope this helps. Remember though, as with any vintage gear, it really depends on how and how well it has been rebuilt and brought back up to snuff.

[stupidhead]

Good morning all,

Thanx for responses so far, I am very excited by all of this. For starters, here is a pic of the unit.

which is the pic I posted in David's thread a while back. Here is another to get a better over view of machine.

As stated before, tube amps are a new adventure for me to own. Of course I have seen and more importantly heard some nice tube setups over the years and have long yearned for such a system. I happen to know someone with a Dyna MkII amp, pre-amp and tuner, and could go with that, but this Citation has spoken to me and is from all I have read in a different league. It will likely take me years to get this where it needs to be, but I am in no particular hurry.

David, yes I have seen McShane's site and will certainly use that as a resource. The real bottom line in my mind is the "match" of 3s and Citation II and the type of music I tend to listen to. My musical preferences are commonly referred to as classic rock, and not necessarily heavy stuff. Top 5 favorites would be something like Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd, Neil Young, Beatles and Bob Dylan. Everything indicates this setup would be fabulous for Classical music, but not necessarily classic rock. I assume that tubes that would sound better with my preferred music type can be (or already have been) identified and used.

I have a significant deposit already with seller and am moving in the direction of consummating this purchase. Can anyone speak to the work that has been done in the article pdf. Is this good bad or indifferent work in the grand scheme of things?

Geoff

p.s. thanx again folks, this community is wonderful

[DavidDru]

Very nice looking. I am not good enough with tubes to tell by looking at them here, but what are they?

[iso]

Geoff

Chassis condition seems to be fine, but recap does not look too well made. In last pic second and third cap from left are hanging on mounting wires. If such compromised work can be seen, it will make me ask what can be found from invisible places.

McShane recap looked more professional to me.

Best Regards

Kimmo

[stupidhead]

David, here is all I know from seller when asked about tubes

"The only thing that has been upgraded on this unit that I know of, is in the power input section of the amp. My tech is getting me a list of the components that were used. I will add he is real good and real slow. There are no modifications or circuit changes on this amp.

The amp comes with 4 new matched JJ Tesla 6550. I am offering 4 RCA 6550 matched tube for another $100. In my test of these, two are real strong and two are real good."

Kimmo, I am as well dubious of the work that has been done. I have reached out to Don Sachs who is McShane's tech for some input.

[JKent]

Geoff

Chassis condition seems to be fine, but recap does not look too well made. In last pic second and third cap from left are hanging on mounting wires. If such compromised work can be seen, it will make me ask what can be found from invisible places.

McShane recap looked more professional to me.

Best Regards

Kimmo

Ditto

Hate to rain on your parade Geoff but I have to agree with Kimmo.

I don't claim to be an expert but I have recapped many tube radios and have re-stuffed a lot of caps and the somewhat unclear photos do not seem to show high quality work. Attached are photos of stuffed 4-part caps going into KLH Model Eights. I sometimes like to add an extra grounding wire so that's the black wire coming out of the bottom.

Also--here's something I'm totally ignorant about but it sends up a red flag: "I told my customer that doubling or quadrupling the microfarad value of the caps would improve the sound."

ALSO, in an expensive and/or collectible amp it would be preferable to install NEW can caps if the correct values are available from Antique Electronic Supply https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitors?filters=Type%3DMulti-Section%20/%20Can%20Type

I certainly hope this works out well for you. I see you have "reached out" to a qualified tech. Maybe he can examine the work or at the very least look at some good quality hi-rez close-up photos.

Keep us posted.

-Kent

[stupidhead]

Ditto

Hate to rain on your parade Geoff but I have to agree with Kimmo.

I don't claim to be an expert but I have recapped many tube radios and have re-stuffed a lot of caps and the somewhat unclear photos do not seem to show high quality work.

Also--here's something I'm totally ignorant about but it sends up a red flag: "I told my customer that doubling or quadrupling the microfarad value of the caps would improve the sound."

ALSO, in an expensive and/or collectible amp it would be preferable to install NEW can caps if the correct values are available from tubesandmore.com

I certainly hope this works out well for you. I see you have "reached out" to a qualified tech. Maybe he can examine the work or at the very least look at some good quality hi-rez close-up photos.

Keep us posted.

-Kent

Kent et al,

I agree and no rain really. I am familiar with the standards of the seller and his mentality and I have no pre-conceived notions that the work he has had done is of high standards. I suspect it would all be undone as it were by a competent tech like Don. The real question lies under the cover and when I get an opportunity I will get some better pics of the guts of this beast. For now I see no reason to not proceed forward.

Any thoughts on the match of amp, speakers and my music type?

Geoff

[JKent]

I agree with all of AR-Pro's comments in post #4.

As far as a match with the AR-3s and classic rock goes.......

I to am using AR-3s and love classic rock. Your "top 5" pretty much matches my play list but I also like classical and my first choice tends to be jazz.

The Citation certainly has "enough" power for the 3s but I think that for big highly-produced sounds like Pink Floyd and later Beatles a higher-powered less expensive solid state amp makes sense. I'm happy with my Adcom 555/II. Of course YMMV.

btw--have you tried to lift the Citation?

Another thought: I have not tried this myself, but some people who want the "warmth" of tubes like to use a tube preamp with a SS amp. Just a thought.

But if you love the beast, go for it!

-Kent

[ar_pro]

Another thought: I have not tried this myself, but some people who want the "warmth" of tubes like to use a tube preamp with a SS amp. Just a thought.

That's an excellent point, Kent.

A tube preamp could provide the warmth that so many tube-enthusiasts love, and a solid-state power amplifier could provide the muscle that speakers like the AR-3 seem to require.

One of the best-sounding & well-matched systems that I heard during the Classic Rock era consisted of a Dynaco PAS-3 preamp, driving a Crown DC-300 power amplifier.

The speakers were Epicure 3.0, with the "truncated pyramid" cabinet (photo attached).

I recall the system as having a very sweet sound, but with plenty of punch, when needed.

Then again, there's just nothing like your first vacuum tube power amplifier!

[owlsplace]

More grist for the mill:

"Well you (Ted) have made me curious and either you and your friends all have tin ears if you and they think it's the solid-state equivalent of the Marantz Nine or you've made the only solid-state amp worth buying. Gordon's most generous praise of the Mark Two in Stereophile most likely started the SAE legend."

From WardsWeb SAE History

There are some new SS amps out there that are way above my pay grade but not everything happens in a vacuum (tube) : http://www.krellonline.com/stereo-amps.html

Roger

[iso]

Geoff

Using McShane PSU recap kit is useful for several reasons. First CED do not produce suitable twistlock caps for voltage doubler circuit in PSU. It might be beneficial to use 680-1000 UF caps as suggested for this part of PSU and use something 1N5408 variety diodes for rectification, as together they will provide less ripple and will fit in place provided for C1 and C2.

When using clamp mounted caps, you can also separate signal ground from chassis ground with or without ground lift resistor. This makes it possible to use grounded 3 prong mains cable. This will improve safety of vintage gear 1000% as fuse will blow whenever there is live connected to chassis. Safety is even better if you can connect signal ground to chassis ground without ground loop hum.

McShane´s improved bias supply grounding makes also sense to me. I simply can not understand how it is possible that I found 5-6 clear grounding errors, when I rebuilt my Citation 11.

I would replace other components only if they are defective. I learned this hard way when I rebuilt Quad 22 line stage. I replaced resistors with more modern better spec ones... and I had to install almost all original ones as they simply sounded better.

Best Regards

Kimmo

[stupidhead]

'mornin' folks,

Thanx again for all the input. A bit more insight as to my intentions is probably in order.

Diane and I are empty nesters as of Spring of 2014. Over the years we have had various configurations of kids/in-laws in the house, and any necessary remodel/building to accommodate for dwellers at any given time. This included a period of time where part of the upstairs was designated as an in-law apartment with full kitchen and bath/laundry facilities. The house is a 2600 sq. ft Garrison with an approximate 30' wide and 34' deep first floor footprint.

It took a good half a year just to get used to no kids in the house, but soon realized this opened up possibilities for both space and house budget. As I have stated before, Diane doesn't necessarily encourage me, but is always very supportive of the audio hobby thing. She enjoys the end result of my efforts and I consider myself lucky to have such a mate.

One day this past Spring we had a revelation about our downstairs. With a little engineering and some mods we could open the floor plan of the first floor up entirely to an open concept space. Moving the kitchen was part of this and the installation of a center beam would result in a open space (after kitchen and living room with fireplace deducted from measurements) of an 18' wall projecting into a 34' deep space. This wall by the way has a composite window (7 windows mulled together) centered on the wall which is approximately 9 feet wide and 11 feet tall! I intend to mount a shelf at the appropriate height on each side of the window for the 3s. The upstairs former in-law kitchen serves us well during this remodel phase. This revelation is what has triggered the AR3 purchase, and the Citation II as well. The intention is to have a variety of systems for listening, depending on the circumstance. Daily listening will be with the Marantz 2325 and a set of AR 5s and/or 2ax on the 34' wall projecting into the 18' area and whatever combo of these specimens. The HK driven 3s would be likely used frequently, but not daily.

Wiring of all of this will be easily concealed with all walls open for construction and I will be seeking guidance on this aspect as well. Wire guage and type for instance, connectors/wall plates for a nice finished professional look etc.

I can post pics if there is any interest in this here.

[owlsplace]

Sounds like a fun project ... keep us posted

[JKent]

Geoff,

Sounds like an exciting project.

Another thought.... Have you ever considered building a brand new tube amp kit like this?

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm

The VTA-ST120 looks pretty cool (and half the price of the Citation).

I'm just sayin'.....

-Kent

[VintageMan]

Sounds like a lot of work, but a picture says more then a 1000 words so bring them on

[iso]

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm

The VTA-ST120 looks pretty cool (and half the price of the Citation).

I'm just sayin'.....

-Kent

These look pretty good deals to me too... Circuit topology is most likely similar to Citation II as there are not too many practical ways to use 3 triode sections for input stage. So my ques is that they use classic Mullard EL34 UL-amplifier configuration with direct coupled paraphase inverter. They have also decided to use small amount of overall feedback on this new "Dyna" line (10db was quoted for M-125) ... so feedback loop around phase inverter stage that Hegeman used probably does not exist (or ratio is very small) , as there is simply not enough open loop gain with 12AU7/12BH7 dual triodes compared to 12BY7 pentodes in H/K.

What bothers me on this "Dyna" line is the use of obsolete twist lock capacitor. What is the point to use capacitor that may be unavailable within year (if sales volume is not enough for CED) in design that is not meant to be faithful reproduction of classic amp. Chassis is different, circuit topology is different and many smaller details have been changed... so with small modern electrolytic´s there should have been other ways to build PSU, even fit is tight especially in ST-120.

This similar circuit topology made me think that Conrad Jonson MV75 is about to receive classic vintage tube amp status and is classic example of similar configuration. Models like MV50, MV52 and Pemier 11 are not too far from it and they all have been sensibly priced recently. As far as I remember I paid less than 1400GBP for almost mint condition Premier 11A without tube cage 5 years ago. Looks of MV series are a bit utilitarian, but Premier 11 is more attractive looking. Premier 11A is voiced like Geoff described Citation II to be. Not exactly neutral... but somehow similar way that my AR2ax voicing has been done... smooth and slightly depressed top end, slightly under damped LF... very nice to the ear.

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/a-mv75.html

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/classic_product_page.html

Best Regards

Kimmo

[alkermes]

Here's another Jim McShane link for his kits for upgrading the Citation II power supply: http://www.mcshanedesign.net/citpage.htm.

To quote, with his kit: "You end up with 630 uf (vs. 140 uf stock) of high quality capacitance for the B+, and twice the decoupling
capacitance." But he just doesn't 4x the capacitance, he also updates the PS diodes, necessary for the increase in capacitance.

In my opinion...despite all the work that went into stuffing the cans, I would re-evaluate the work that has been done and use Mr. McShane's recommended parts, as he is the expert on these amps. And Mr. Sachs, as DavidDru linked, is the guy to go to if you would like someone to do the work. Why not shoot him an email, if you haven't already, and explain the situation to him and get his recommendation.

If I were restoring a Citation II, there's a better way to go. This amp deserves a first class restoration.

[DavidDru]

Yes. It looks like they did a nice effort to try and restore it back to original condition and it should be okay, but reality is polyfilms are superior. Power supply especially I guess. It takes some creative effort to mount and hide some of them, but the end result is much better.

[iso]

but reality is polyfilms are superior.

I do not understand where you are referring or what this does mean?

Kimmo

[stupidhead]

Kimmo, probably a reference back to the pdf on my post #1. It is a write up on the work done to date on the amp I am considering.

I appreciate the interest in this thread and I will process and post some pics soon, as well as some thoughts.

Geoff

[DavidDru]

Correct. It refers to the fact that so far it appears that this particular unit had the old can caps restuffed with similar electrolytics, good ones. This is what some do when they are attempting to make a restored version of the original look as similar as possible to the original for aesthetic/purity purposes. As with all of these restoration efforts, even our speakers, you have to walk that fine line of restore vs upgrade. In this case there are newer better caps that could be used that would be superior to standard electrolytics. Poly films caps are what I am referring to and would likely be used if that particular piece was to be built today. Of course it would be a lot bigger too because of it! Look at the McShane rebuilds and you will see what they use in specific areas of these to get out of them what it is capable of.

It is just a different approach. A restored Citation like this one SH is looking at will be great. I wish I had it. There just are ways to go to another level that will also cost additional big $. Many of these can be done over time too.

It is the same with my ST70 and Pas2 preamps. I have had to replace things like selenium rectifiers, power supply boards, can caps etc. Each time I had to weigh keeping it stock or going with the better spec newer approach. The good thing with this amp is that it is already starting at a very high level and SH can not go wrong if the work that has been done has been done correctly.