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Need Advice on Refinishing Rough KLH Model 5 Cabinets


thr33p4c

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Back in February I restored a pair of KLH Model Five Speakers. I recapped the crossovers and repaired one mid range drivers. They are now mechanically solid and sound amazing.

An account of my work so far can be seen here: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=8225&hl=

I applied a coat of light furniture wax to the cabinets and touched up some of the black accent paint on the fronts but they are still in poor condition cosmetically. I just finished restoring a pair of Model Sixes in much better cosmetic condition and now I am drooling over the clean lustrous veneer. I would like to get some opinions on the best process and products to use on my fives to make them look as good as they sound.

The grills and badges are in excellent shape but all of the veneer needs help. I have attached some photos of the trouble spots below... I have a little bit of everything going on.

I think all but one of the corners are in good shape which is a bonus. The one bad corner is just slightly chipped but right below that corner there is a giant gouge that goes through the veneer and into the enclosure material. It is towards the back of the cabinet but I would like to build this up with some sort of putty or epoxy. Any thoughts?

One speaker looks very nice head on but the other has two small chips. This trim material appears to be solid wood. Can anyone verify this? If so, what is the best course of action here. Do I try to just match the finish, and finish the newly exposed wood, or build up the chip?

Finally, the sides of both cabinets are heavily scratched from being pulled in and out of high shelves during storage. I don't think the scratching goes very deep. I have sifted through a bunch of threads on refinishing and it seems like there are a lot of different products and methods out there. Should I strip/sand and refinish or take a more subtle approach with one of the milder products in this situation?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I love my Fives and plan on keeping them for a very long time. I don't mind putting a bit of time and money into cosmetics. I can keep my new Sixes on the 2 channel setup until my Fives have been revived.

Ben

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Hi Ben

The Fives are wonderful speakers. Wish I had kept mine.

Unlike most classic speakers the Fives were originally lacquered (I assume it was lacquer but may have been varnish). Stripping it off really helps the wood come alive. If it's lacquer, you can clean it off with lacquer thinner and paper towels. You may need to use lacquer thinner and bronze wool. Be careful of that front frame. It is solid wood but may not be walnut. Possibly some other (lighter color) species stained to match.

I have had success filling chips with stained epoxy: J.B. WoodWeld with some Mixol #22 stain mixed in. Roy prefers the colored epoxy sticks made by Mohawk. Those are very easy to use.

After filling, file or sand the repair down level with the surrounding wood. You can sand the veneer but VERY carefully. Stay away from edges and corners. Best bet is to use #220 and finer with a sanding block and do it by hand. An orbital sander is just courting disaster. Those superficial scratches in image 4 can probably be sanded out. Hard to tell how deep the gouges are in image 2 but they don't look too bad. I'd probably just sand out any roughness, clean the whole frame with thinner and touch up the ding with stain if needed.

After sanding, wipe it all down with lacquer thinner again. If you have removed all of the original finish you can apply a couple fo coats of Minwax Antique Oil, which will give them a little sheen like the original finish but will bring out the wood grain nicer.

Kent

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Kent,

I have attached a more detailed picture of the gouge. I was taking the other pictures last night and it was really dark. Do you still think I should just stain it once its cleaned up or try to build it up?

I am probably going to head down to the hardware store later today and pick up a bunch of materials. Can you double check that I am looking at all of the correct products?

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020218/21017/Klean-Strip-Lacquer-Thinner-Quart.aspx?refcode=10INGOPB&gclid=Cj0KEQjwy_SgBRCxhsqc3prt8rQBEiQAHI_9GQEHGNChp2DtpoK8-JWiVLw4eHI2EAMJwaZWJj8NTggaAkJl8P8HAQ

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=113

http://www.rockler.com/minwax-antique-oil-finish?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=Cj0KEQjwy_SgBRCxhsqc3prt8rQBEiQAHI_9GZSDgt882Tnrd8k9-xUdMye-XDSbDMIWiQlDMalphMEaAiYm8P8HAQ

Is it best to mask the drivers with a piece of cardboard while working on the cab or should I just take everything out? The cabinets are quite heavy. It might be easiest to remove all of the components but I worry about degrading the pull of the screws every time I pull the drivers out.

Another general question. I love my Fives. In my opinion they are a far nicer sounding speaker than the Sixes. My system is not very forgiving and requires that the speakers have a very flat response. The Fives are a perfect match for my gear right now. I applied Roy's sealant to the surrounds on my Sixes and they seem to be sealed pretty good. When listening, the bass seems nicely extended but it is also a bit boomy and overpowering. The woofers on my Fives bounce right back when pushed in. I was planning on using Roy's sealant on them as well but am worried that I might not like how they sound when they are sealed up. In your experience are the Sixes generally a bit bass heavy? If, so, is the difference that I am hearing possibly coming from the lack of a mid-range driver in the Sixes? I wouldn't mind tighter bass response and a bit of lower end extension as long as it doesn't ruin the balance of the system. Seal or no Seal? Any thoughts?

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Hi Ben
That gouge in this post's photo should definitely be filled. Photos #2 & 4 in the 1st post looked minor. Photo #3 showed a gouge that needed filling.
Those are the 3 products I mentioned.
Masking the drivers should be fine.
I've never heard the Six but the Fives should be superior. They were more expensive and even the KLH ads said the Fives had lower bass harmonic distortion than the Sixes. In my own experience the Fives before re-sealing with Roy's stuff were unimpressive but after resealing they were great. The woofers should NOT pop right back out. Take a look at the Service Bulletin in the Library. http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/klh/other/klh_schematicsservice/klh_service_bulletin_60.pdf

Resealing was a "mandatory procedure to be followed with all speakers returned for service"
Hope this helps.
Kent

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Kent.

Thank you for the info. I think I will try to seal up these cabinets. While I have the sealant out is there any reason to seal the mid-range drivers or are those usually okay?

This 6 to 5 comparison reminded me about this cool Model 5 ad that I purchased off of eBay while I was working on my restore. It explains how the 5 was designed to perform best with only the best quality recordings and that KLH was taking a gamble that the best recordings of the day would be the standard for tomorrow. Its really neat. I will try to scan and post it soon. Is that something that is worthy of the Library or is that reserved for more technical documents?

Now that that's out of the way. I went around to a couple of hardware stores around town and had trouble finding some of the products. I obviously have access to lacquer thinner and sand paper but I would probably have to order the Mohawk epoxy sticks and Antique Oil. The stores in town carry Watco which I have seen recommended on the AR boards. Is Watco an acceptable alternative to the antique oil in this situation? If so, which color would be best? Medium Walnut Perhaps?

I also have access to this product:

http://www.google.com/shopping/product/10469351726311564167?lsf=seller:8740,store:5158227131149629846&hl=en&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100166444&ci_sku=100166444&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969&gclid=Cj0KEQjwy_SgBRCxhsqc3prt8rQBEiQAHI_9GQCrYDDOhA9UoDa1Hni-iO3dtvFb8Sq1luYmqH1cAtEaAiMP8P8HAQ

As well as Howards Restor-a-Finish.

I like the idea of stripping off all of the old lacquer so the Watco would be my first choice.

I have access to the JB WoodWeld in three different colors, but do not know where to look for the Mixol 22.

I found this product that may work for filling the gouge It comes in Walnut:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/DAP-4-oz-White-Plastic-Wood-Solvent-Wood-Filler-21412/100493605

If you think that my alternative products will not do well in this situation I may have to place an order for a few things online. Sorry to be such a bother about things. I just value your experience and knowledge and would rather get the right stuff the first time and not experiment on speakers that I would like to hang onto for a while.

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Headed out now, so just a few quick comments:

  1. The Service Bulletin does recommend sealing the mids ("12.5 drivers") but they probably don't need it.
  2. Do not use Plastic Wood.
  3. I was not aware that JB WoodWeld came in colors and in fact I did not find any color other than Natuaral with a very quick Google search. They also make KwikWeld, which is a stick like Mohawk but that also seems to only come in Natural.
  4. Mixol is available from woodworker supply houses and art supply houses. You will only need a drop for that repair, so a putty stick like Mohawk may be better.
  5. Antique Oil is readily available in many hardware and paint stores. Watco oil is different--it does not have the varnish in it that Antique Oil contains. Howard's is not for stripped wood.
  6. Here are some epoxy putty sticks

http://www.rockler.com/quikwood-epoxy-putty-stick-1-ounce-quikwood-putty-stick

http://www.shopwoodrepairproducts.com/epoxyputtystick.aspx

Also, Elmer's makes a Rotted Wood Repair Kit that contains 2 sticks. I think one dark and one light. I "think" this is it http://www.amazon.com/Elmers-E785-Rotted-Wood-Repair/dp/B000MVTIQE/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1411247424&sr=8-6&keywords=wood+rot+repair+kit+epoxy

Kent

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I believe I can get the Antique Oil from the local Sherwin Williams. I will call them in the morning and see if they carry it here.

As far as the putty goes I a striking out. Ithaca does have a little art supply store downtown that may have the Mixol but its a long shot.

You are right about the JB Woodweld. It think the color is called light tan. I saw a similar package that said light grey but it must have been regular jb weld for metal. The KwikWood might be a good alternative but I am back to the same issue with color matching.

What about this stuff. I saw it today while I was around. It comes in both natural and Walnut among other colors:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Elmer-s-Wood-Filler-Max-Walnut-6-oz-E9010/203211477

If you think it may work I can give it a shot and report back. If its a definite no I guess I will have to order either the mixol or some putty sticks online.

Ben

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The Elmer's wood filler, like Plastic Wood, is not durable and will eventually chip off. The only thing that works is epoxy. I think your only option is to order online.

Amazon has Mixol http://www.amazon.com/Mixol-Universal-Tints-Oxide-Tobacco/dp/B0036B4OMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411306806&sr=8-1&keywords=mixol+22

but as I mentioned, you literally need one drop of the stuff. Roy swears by the Mohawk sticks and they are easy to use--knead a piece in your hand until thoroughly mixed, then press in place. Most economical is probably the KwikWood from Rockler.

I describe the Mixol method on page 9 of my KLH Model Eight guide attached to post #1 here: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6387

but that's last year's edition and specifies clear epoxy. I now prefer the WoodWeld (next edition of the booklet coming soon).

As I mentioned, the Elmer's "Rotted Wood Repair Kit" here http://www.amazon.com/Elmers-E785-Rotted-Wood-Repair/dp/B000MVTIQE may have one natural stick and one walnut stick. The listing does not say but I bought some in either Lowes or Home Despot several months ago. It was a clearance, so maybe they no longer sell it.

My advice is quit running all over town and order what you need online. Yeah--there's the shipping cost and the wait but it's less hassle ;)

Kent

PS Here's a page that shows the dramatic improvement stripping the old lacquer or varnish off will make. http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=90209

He refinished with Watco Oil and they look beautiful. I prefer the Minwax Antique Oil for these because they originally had a harder/glossier finish than oil provides. Tung Oil is similar to Antique Oil. Or if you use Danish Oil you can later apply a good coat of wax.

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I am really striking out here :( The Mohawk Sticks are sold out at Rockler. I can get one from WRP but they don't carry the Minwax Antique Oil.

I think this is what I am going to do so that I do not need to order a bunch of different products from all over. Ill order a bottle of Mixol #22 and mix with either JB WoodWeld or KwikWood and Finish with Watco Danish Oil. I liked how the ones in the link you sent turned out. I have some wax on hand that I could apply if they need a bit more shine.

Kent, Have you worked with both the WoodWeld & KwikWood? Which is easier to work with?

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Sounds like a plan.

I've worked with both but I don't think you can easily mix the Mixol into the KwikWood stick. You have to knead it in your hands and you'd end up with stained skin. I think wearing gloves would be awkward.

I use the JB WoodWeld all the time and find it very easy to work with. It's not as runny as regular epoxy--just short of being a paste. Mix the 2 parts VERY thoroughly. An old coffee can lid works well because the epoxy won't stick to that plastic. Shake the Mixol and add just a drop, mix it in.

You can make a "dam" by putting a strip of masking tape on the edge of the cabinet so the epoxy mixture won't flow over the side.

Let it cure 24 hours before filing or sanding.

You'll have a lifetime supply of Mixol left over but it contains no binder, so you can add it to oil- or water-based stains, glues, or finishes. May come in handy for other projects.

Good luck.

Kent

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Update:

I wanted to get started on stripping the worst side of one of the cabinets before my tint arrives so that I can prep some of the bad spots for building up with epoxy. I have attached a few images. I do not know if my method is wrong or perhaps the finish is not lacquer but this is hard work. I was at it for over an hour and have not even finished the first side. I am using Lacquer Thinner with 0000 Steel Wool and wiping up with paper towels. I also tried a Mr. Clean magic eraser which was great for the edges and corners but not very effective on the big sections. The good news is the heavy scratching was all in the finish and has completely disappeared now that it has been stripped. The big gouge also looks a lot less daunting.

Any suggestions on improved method or a different product to use for stripping this finish? If this is the only way I will just take it slow. The grain is really going to pop when I am all done.

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ooops. Guess it's not lacquer. I was basing the lacquer assumption on what I find on KLH radios. I'm assuming it must be (may be) varnish. Think I used Citri-Strip but it's a really messy process. The guy on pinkfish used mineral spirits and steel wool.

Since you've got the edges pretty clean you could sand the sides, staying away from the edges.

Sorry I gave you a bum steer but it looks like you're making good progress. Take it slowly and remember that veneer is thin.

Kent

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No worries Kent, I have used chemical strippers before on other projects and they are a mess. Not to mention bad to breath and get on your hands. I also don't feel comfortable using a scraper on the this veneer. I think I will continue as I have been going and by the end I will probably have perfected a solid method that I can pass on. The look and feel of what I have done so far is really nice. The Lacquer thinner is helping lift the varnish/color out of the wood when I start getting all the way through it.

Ill probably have a significant amount of time invested in the end but I have a feeling it is going to be worth it. Watch for an update this weekend.

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Update:

A fine Scotch-Brite pad with a spray bottle full of lacquer thinner seems to be the ticket. I got almost all of the finish removed from my first cabinet and have started to fill the dings and gouges. The JB WoodWeld sets up extremely fast and I think I may have to sand and whip up a second batch for the big gouge once it cures. It caught me by surprise and I don't think I put enough in to fill the entire gouge before it started getting really tacky. I have not touched the solid wood front cap yet. It seems to be a lighter color wood and I don't know if I want to mess with it. I have just a bit of it exposed where I got to close to one edge while working on the veneer. I will see how the oil looks on that section first.

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Update:

First coat of oil going on the first cabinet. I am going to do them one at a time and hopefully get a really nice A/B.

I chose the Medium walnut WATCO and it appears to match the wood cap's finish nicely.

I am following the instructions I found here for my oil finish:

http://www.sustainlife.org/blogs/woodworking/finishing-with-danish-oil/

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Great thread, and it's good to see that you were able to muscle your way to getting those cabs stripped well. Not being overly familiar with the KLH culture, I am unable to hazard a guess at the original finish that first proved so stubborn for you.

You've got a very nice-looking finish developing, but the only thing that puzzles me is the huge difference in coloration between the walnut veneer shown in pics 2 and 3 in post #17. Pic 2 has that reddish quality that I try to achieve with my own cabinet restorations, but your pic 3 has none of the red and is much more of a true walnut brown, brown, brown.

Also, this thought may be a little late at this point but, whenever I use Watco (products that I do like a lot), I always tend to first thin the oil with mineral spirits. I do end up applying multiple coats (not all that many, but at least a few), but this step greatly reduces drying time and for me at least, makes for a more satisfying oil application process by having far fewer sticky oil situations occur that may be created by certain atmospheric conditions.

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From what I have seen so far on my cabinets, every surface has a slightly different grain and color. The top and the side in pic #2 are showing about the same color finish so far, but pic #3 is significantly more brown and almost dull as you can see. I am lucky that most of the surfaces are single pieces though. The top of the second speaker, which has not been pictured yet, is two pieces of veneer and the restoration link that Kent shared in post #8 shows a large side of a cabinet that is two pieces. In that thread, you can see one side of a speaker that has two drastically different tones when finished. I hope that my second top has two piece of similar material so I can avoid this, but as far as side to side to side I don't mind a little variety.

My father and I built my equipment rack out of solid maple and a lot of the smaller pieces happened to have a lot of "tiger striping" or "flames". I love the different varieties in grain and because of the unique finish that we used. (Vinegar & Iron) it changes color in the light. I think my Fives will compliment the rack nicely when they are finished.

Here is a link to our build:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/diy-audio-rack-progress-not-flexy-1

This is what it looks like from the side in the sun. Don't mind the shoe box...

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Never mind about the 1 piece sides. Now that the finish has sat overnight I can see seams on every side. Most of them are book matched. It actually is turning out kind of neat. I will post more pictures tonight. I have decided to strip and refinish the front caps as well. Now that these other lines will be evident I will not be upset of the cap line is somewhat visible.

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Those are turning out very well, and yes, the veneer color/pattern is often somewhat unique for nearly each and every surface. When you mention the "cap line", are you referring to the front molding that frames the grille, or is this something else you are referring to?

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from post #2

Be careful of that front frame. It is solid wood but may not be walnut. Possibly some other (lighter color) species stained to match.

But judging by the absolutely fantastic job you & your dad did building that equipment rack, I don't think you need any advice from me <_<

Beautiful work!

For any member who did not follow the links, check it out here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/diy-audio-rack-progress-not-flexy-1

Kent

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I am talking about the solid frame, was not quite sure what to call it.

Glad you like the rack Kent. It is something that I will own forever and am quite proud of. Unfortunately, my father and his shop are back in Wisconsin so I am limited on what I can do. I may have some final questions for you on my second speaker cabinet frame. It has some shallow gouges and I do not think the JB Wood Weld is the proper solution for this part. Clear epoxy perhaps? I might just leave them and see what happens when everything is oil finished to the same color. I will post some more detailed pics of the damage when I strip the second cabinet this weekend.

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Update:

The finish on the frame was much thicker and would have taken ages to strip with my veneer method. Since it was solid wood I took to it with first with 150 grit sand paper on a block and came back over it with a 00 Steel Wool equivalent Scotch Brite pad. Before finishing, I went over it quick with 1000 grit sand paper and cleaned it up really well with lacquer thinner. I tried to work only at the two main angles to avoid rounding out the lines as much as possible. The color when sanded matched very closely to the stripped veneer color. I threw a coat of danish oil on the frame and put the second coat on the veneer right away. The frame is soaking up the oil pretty well so I anticipate having to do a couple extra coats on the frame.

I am very pleased with how it is looking so far. The grain on the frame is really nice and the color is surprisingly consistent on most surfaces.

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Up next - The second cab's veneer is in much better shape than the first but the frame is dinged up. Now that I know I can sand and refinish the frame I think I am going to clean the second frame up as much as possible and just oil right over the blemishes.

For those that may be interested, I have also attached a before and after of the big gouge from the first cabinet. Looking back it would have been nice to tint the epoxy a bit darker and try to get it all in one shot but overall I am pleased. 200% better than it was.

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