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Fast blow speaker fuses


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#1 dynaco_dan

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:44 PM

>Hi there;
>
>Twice now I emailed my questions to fuseone.com and twice I
>have not received any kind of acknowledgment.
>
>I guess this is the kind of service I could expect to receive
>as well.
>
>This sort of reminds me of Laynes, no responses and yet the
>orders were processed ok.
>
>Well, now I certainly can't even suggest anyone send any kind
>of an order with money to fuseone.com.
>
>Just to let you know what I had written to them about.
>
>I asked if they had access to other sizes of Bussmann fuses
>and a price break for quantity, if there was one.
>
>If they were good at their emails and the other sizes were
>available I would have brought this to your attention at
>least.



Hi again;

I am going to continue on this topic regarding fusing, rather than answer questions in other topics that include fusing information.

Crownaudio.com is the website of the old Crown International of the Crown DC-300/A fame, now part of The Harmon International Group.

I am not too familiar with how to do links, I will type in the steps instead.

means goto >

Crownaudio.com > support > technical info > amplifiers > Crown amplifier technical information > scroll down to other Crown amplifier technologies > then read, How much amp power do I need?

If you like what you read, leave them a thank you and tell them where you obtained this direction from.

There is not any handholding or schematics as to how to do this individual fusing of each driver.

I went back to Fuseone.com again, and left a 3rd email, this time I also left a message at their secondary email address, just in case.

I can't be having just a bad day, you never know, heh?

Fast blow fuses today are very easy to locate, compared to the Bussmann FNM and Littlefuse FLM slow blow fuses and open style fuseholders.
VERN

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#2 dynaco_dan

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 04:04 AM

Hi there;

Twice now I emailed my questions to fuseone.com and twice I have not received any kind of acknowledgment.

I guess this is the kind of service I could expect to receive as well.

This sort of reminds me of Laynes, no responses and yet the orders were processed ok.

Well, now I certainly can't even suggest anyone send any kind of an order with money to fuseone.com.

Just to let you know what I had written to them about.

I asked if they had access to other sizes of Bussmann fuses and a price break for quantity, if there was one.

If they were good at their emails and the other sizes were available I would have brought this to your attention at least.
VERN

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#3 dynaco_dan

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 06:47 PM

Hi there;

Well I gave fuseone.com several days to respond to my questions and I didn't receive a reply back yet.

I hope that their response time or lack thereof is not indicative of their typical service.

Recently Layne Audio has a dead phone.

I hope that if this business is good, then it may be only temporary.

I have read where others had no reponse from Layne and ordered anyways and did receive their orders.

A part of why a small business survives is making a difference with the value added personnal touch.

Yes, price is important, but the personnal touch is something you can't buy.
VERN

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#4 dynaco_dan

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 06:34 AM

Hi James;

Thank you.

The photo was great.

A picture is worth a thousand words, that is for sure.

You did a very nice and secure job of assembling your wires, connectors and fuseholders.

At least you also bought the 1 amp fuse rather than upsizing or bypassing.

I know I read somewhere in the past, a resistor bypass for the fuseholders.

A (5 watt 100 ohm ?), maybe, wirewound resistor was also soldered across the fuseholder, so that when the fuse blew, there was at least a small load, rather than an instant none load, on the amplifier.

This value would be safe until I find that article and picture again.
VERN

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#5 draftingmonkey

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:41 AM

Howdy Vern

Always enjoy your posts. I wanted to share a pic of how my AR,s are fused. I went to my local Marvac and bought them out of their open style fuse holders. I am currently fusing my 4x's and 2ax's with the FNM 6/10 and currently mt 3a's with the FNM 1. They were out of the FNM 1-1/4. Also today picked up some FNm 8/10 as per the Advent fusing literature from the library.
The photo may be a little fuzzy, digital isn't always the best for closeups. Not pretty wiring, only temporary (hah hah you know how that is).

James

ps It would be interesting to be able to seperately fuse each driver.

pps Vern drop me a line a funotter@jps.net when you get a chance

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Nothing like a nice pair of gams

#6 dynaco_dan

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 10:40 PM

.
>
>I did a search and found:
>
>http://www.fuseone.com/item.asp?id=105
>

> Midget Fuses
> Time Delay 13/32 x 1 1/2"

> Compact time delay fuses for high inrush loads
>
>Here, the rating information seems to make no sense to me,
>does it to you?
>
>At fuseone.com they did have the FNM 8/10 in stock for $1.88
>each with a minimum order of $10. I did not find the FNM 6/10
>in stock.
>
>Can you help me make sense of all of this? I'd like to follow
>your advice and "fuse my speakers," but the wrong size fuse
>would be the proverbial 'penny in the fuse box,' no?
>
>I've also seen some recommendations that involve separate
>fusing of the woofers from the higher frequency speakers.
>Wouldn't that be a tall order on a sealed system speaker like
>an AR?
>
>Thanks for any insights,
>
>Baumgrenze



Hi there;

I went to the fuseone.com website and had a looksee, and left them an email with questions to reply back to me.

This is a very good topic and your questions are great.

When I receive a reply from fuseone.com I will write a little more regarding my questions to them.

I am also wanting to know their response time.

Separate fusing is maybe a few hours work and a small investment in material.

This will be discussed further and more detailed at another time.
VERN

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#7 dynaco_dan

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 02:14 AM

Hi there;

You did good reading that data.

Disregard the other technical data, as that is to much information for our needs and it confuses the real need.

Which speaker system do you have?

If you have a model listed, then use that particular model fuse.

That was back then, for the entire enclosure, which was primarily for the woofer.

The tweeter is definitely still very much vulnerable to damage and the mid less so, but nevertheless, Murphy's Law says, "the tweeter will blow, protecting the fuse from blowing first".

I have read more than one comment of drivers needing replacement on this site.

Crown's idea of individual driver fusing is a sure winner, if, and only if, we knew the proper sizes.

Somewhere down the road, someone will create a variable solid state fuse, which is adaptable to all, or at least most speaker systems, at a low cost.

Possibly going this route, the recommended Bussmann FNM or Littlefuse FLM equivalent slow blow fuses may still be appropriate for just the woofers.

Further investigation would determine if this comment is valid.

Perhaps a lower value here as well.

The tweeters and mids would be separately fast blow fused, at their appropriate fuse sizes.

Also further investigation would be required for each driver as well as to their limitations.

Our speakers may be over 25 year old, be careful with the volume controls.

They certainly are fragile today.

There is a few really technical writers on this website, maybe they have or will experiment, and post their results here.

I don't have enough spare drivers to experiment with, otherwise, I would volunteer to sacrifice a few for the cause to benefit so many others.
VERN

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#8 Guest_baumgrenze_*

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 12:51 AM

Hello Vern,

I went to the Library and carefully transposed the information on fusing AR speakers. It seems to come down to this:

"If you wish to protect the speaker system from thermal overload due to such abnormal inputs, the most appropriate type for the AR-2x, AR-2ax, AR-4, AR-4xa, AR-6, AR-7, and AR-8 is Fusetron dual-element type FNM 6/10. For the AR-1x, AR-3, and the AR-5 the most appropriate is Fuestron dual-element type FNM 8/10. For the AR-3a, the proper fuse is Fusetron dual-element type FNM 1 . For the AR/LST and AR/LST-2, FNM 2 fuses are recommended."

"For all speaker systems EXCEPT THE 2 LSTs, these fuses should be mounted in an open (not cartridge typ) fuse holder, such as the Fusetron type 4421, and connected in series with the leads from the amplifier (see sketch for typical hookup.)"

The sketch shows the fuse holder on the back of the cabinet with the lead to the amplifier passing through the fuse to the "T" terminal. (AR Teledyne 7/75 70036

I think I understand that the FNM 8/10 fuse is designed to blow at 0.8 A at 250 VAC and the FNM 6/10 at 0.6 A at 250 VAC.

I did a search and found:

http://www.fuseone.com/item.asp?id=105

where the FNM 8/10 is described as follows:

Midget Fuses
Time Delay 13/32 x 1 1/2"
10,000 Amp interrupting rating at 125 Volt
Rated 250 VAC (1/10 thru 10A)
Rated 125 VAC (12 thru 15A)
Rated 32 VAC (20 thru 40 A)
Protect indoor/outdoor lighting circuits, electric furnaces, machine tool transformers and control circuits
Compact time delay fuses for high inrush loads

Here, the rating information seems to make no sense to me, does it to you?

At fuseone.com they did have the FNM 8/10 in stock for $1.88 each with a minimum order of $10. I did not find the FNM 6/10 in stock.

Can you help me make sense of all of this? I'd like to follow your advice and "fuse my speakers," but the wrong size fuse would be the proverbial 'penny in the fuse box,' no?

I've also seen some recommendations that involve separate fusing of the woofers from the higher frequency speakers. Wouldn't that be a tall order on a sealed system speaker like an AR?

Thanks for any insights,

Baumgrenze

#9 dynaco_dan

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 05:58 AM

>>Wouldn't any brand of fuse work as long as its the correct
>>value? It doesn't really need to be an expensive brand it
>just
>>has to work you could probably go to fleet farm. I dont know
>>if you all have that but in other words hardware stores and
>>buy the correct fuses. They may not be the most expensive
>>brand but as long as it works is my motto but maybe i am
>>missing somthing here are these special type fuses?
>
>
>Hi Bob;
>
>The fuses that AR and Advent recommended and sold to customers
>were the Bussmann FNM series fuses in an open style
>fusholder.
>
>If you think there is not much to fuses go to the Bussmann
>website and see all of the specialized fuses.
>
>Littlefuse also has the FLN or FLM (I believe that is the
>correct equiv) model fuse.
>
>I might suggest you go to the Crownaudio.com website and read
>their literature on speaker power handling and fusing, it will
>shed a lot more light on the issue.
>
>Fast blow fuses were never mentioned by AR or Advent, Dynaco
>did recommend only the fast blow.
>
>The two slow blow type fuses are about $5.00 US each plus an
>open cartridge style fuseholder is needed.
>
>Fast blow fuses are all over the place but after reading the
>literature you'll understand it better.
>
>I have used and have recommended a fast blow 1 amp fuse for
>decades, for each of my speakers systems, and yes I do blow
>some, but at $.25 or less each I don't lose any sleep.
>
>You raised an excellent question, Bob, I hope that after
>reading this, going to the AR library, and downloading the
>fusing sheets, and going to Crownaudio.com you will be much
>the wiser.
>
>Have a great year.


Hi there;

I've had a strong cup of coffee, so I thought I would add to this topic again.

I want to stress at this time that the slow blow AR recommended and also Advent FNM fuses are not comparable or compatible with the 1/4" x 1 1/4" glass slow blow fuse.

You can not interchange them.

If only all of our speakers had been manufacturered with tweeter, mids and woofer fuseholders and the fuse sizes specified by the manufacturers, it would have eliminatd a lot of blown drivers.

In the future I don't foresee them installing fuseholders, if all manufacturers did not do it, the prices would be unequal.

The manufacturers just seem to want to sell and by adding this issue customers might see that there is a limitation as to how loud they can be driven.

As long as new replacement drivers are being manufacturerd it isn't as big an issue as to when the company ceases production of the OEM drivers.

The additional fuseholders, fuses, wire, and labour to install at the factory would definitely add a few dollars to our cost but the added measure of security would be worth it for those that follow the correct fuse sizing.
VERN

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#10 dynaco_dan

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 10:26 PM

>Wouldn't any brand of fuse work as long as its the correct
>value? It doesn't really need to be an expensive brand it just
>has to work you could probably go to fleet farm. I dont know
>if you all have that but in other words hardware stores and
>buy the correct fuses. They may not be the most expensive
>brand but as long as it works is my motto but maybe i am
>missing somthing here are these special type fuses?


Hi Bob;

The fuses that AR and Advent recommended and sold to customers were the Bussmann FNM series fuses in an open style fusholder.

If you think there is not much to fuses go to the Bussmann website and see all of the specialized fuses.

Littlefuse also has the FLN or FLM (I believe that is the correct equiv) model fuse.

I might suggest you go to the Crownaudio.com website and read their literature on speaker power handling and fusing, it will shed a lot more light on the issue.

Fast blow fuses were never mentioned by AR or Advent, Dynaco did recommend only the fast blow.

The two slow blow type fuses are about $5.00 US each plus an open cartridge style fuseholder is needed.

Fast blow fuses are all over the place but after reading the literature you'll understand it better.

I have used and have recommended a fast blow 1 amp fuse for decades, for each of my speakers systems, and yes I do blow some, but at $.25 or less each I don't lose any sleep.

You raised an excellent question, Bob, I hope that after reading this, going to the AR library, and downloading the fusing sheets, and going to Crownaudio.com you will be much the wiser.

Have a great year.
VERN

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#11 Guest_bob33_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

Wouldn't any brand of fuse work as long as its the correct value? It doesn't really need to be an expensive brand it just has to work you could probably go to fleet farm. I dont know if you all have that but in other words hardware stores and buy the correct fuses. They may not be the most expensive brand but as long as it works is my motto but maybe i am missing somthing here are these special type fuses?

#12 dynaco_dan

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:23 AM

Just to add a note to the previous fusing information I wrote.

Heathkit had a model AS-103 speaker system which was a colaberation of Heath/AR and was an equivalent to a AR-3A speaker system.

A chassis mounted fuse holder was installed and a 3 amp fast blow fuse was used.

An o-ring was used to seal the fuse holder cap and would have also kept the fuse from cooling down.

I will be adding some old information on fusing soon that I just came across this week.

I believe it will compliment this fusing issue.
VERN

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#13 dynaco_dan

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:27 AM

>Hi there again;
>
>I have mentioned in other posts regarding speaker fusing,
>something I am a firm believer in.
>
>Mostly for Acoustic Research speakers, but Dynaco and Advent
>came up as well.
>
>Particularly, when a 1 @ fast blow fuse, in an open fuse
>block, which I have recommended and used for decades now,
>only costs nickels compared to a blown tweeter.
>
>The fast blow fuse characteristics are similar to a tweeters,
>but not the woofers.
>
>The woofers characteristics follow the slow blow fuse.
>
>Crownaudio.com has a more detailed explanation of both, I feel
>their suggestion is to use both type fuses for maximum
>protection.
>
>Unfortunately, the prices of Bussmann FNM slow blow fuses,
>along with hardly ever mentioned, anywhere, Littlefuse FLM
>slow blow fuse have skyrocketed.
>
>I don't own nor have I ever owned a Dynaco 416 power
>amplifier.
>
>I will give you some data from their 416 manual which can
>still be used for other than Dynaco speaker products.
>
>
>
>I am quoting without anyones permission and may leave out some
>words to keep this write-up brief. Credit to Dynaco Inc.,
>
>Output fuse protection.
>
>On the 416 and also the Dynaco 400, Dynaguard was used as part
>of their speaker protection in addition to series speaker
>fuses.
>
>The Dynaguard circuit could be disabled leaving the fuses
>only.
>
>They always suggested that Dynaguard be left at the very least
>at the 20 setting rather than off.
>
>Since the power passed by a fuse varies with load impedance,
>and test signals have little correlation to music signals, and
>fuses vary in their tolerance of music overloads, the
>protective rating determination for a speaker is largely
>empirical. Logic would suggest the smallest value fuse which
>does not blow frequently at what are high, but nonetheless
>safe levels for your speaker. There are few speakers capable
>of safely handling more power than will blow a 2 ampere fuse.
>The speaker manufacturer who specifies a fuse rating solves
>your problem. Lacking this, remember that a fuse will not blow
>until a sustained signal well above its rating is imposed for
>a time. A slo-blow fuse will allow appreciabley more overdrive
>that the same value standard fast blow type, and is thus not
>generally recommended for speaker protection. There are also
>very fast acting types usually used for instrumentation.
>
>The lowest Dynaguard setting is the practical limit for
>assured operation of the protection circuit, yet some speakers
>need protection sooner- as little as 1/2 ampere, or 4 watts
>for a 16 ohm speaker, if the fuse blows at its rating. Tests
>have shown that musical signals which frequently cause the
>overload lamp to glow brightly in the minimum Dynaguard 20
>position with an 8 ohm speaker will occassionally blow a 1
>ampere fast blow fuse (nominally 8 watts). A 1 ampere slow
>blow type did not blow. Peaks up to the full power of the
>amplifier were sometime passed during these tests.
>
>The rating of the 416 amp is;
>
>Power at clipping, single channel, 2500 hz, less than 1%
>distortion.
>
>235 watts @ 8 ohm
>350 watts @ 4 ohm
>450 watts @ 2 ohm
>135 watts @ 16 ohm
>
>
>The chart shows the highest sustained power which WILL NOT
>blow the fuses shown. Remember that speaker impedance
>typically rises well above its nominal value. Experience
>suggests that on this basis power levels of 10 watts are safe
>starting points for most high fidelity speakers using a single
>woofer.
>
FUSE SIZE.(fast blow)............speaker impedance

........................4 ohms.........8 ohms.......16 ohms

1/2 @...................1 watt.........2............4
3/4.....................2.2............4.5..........9
1.......................4..............8............16
1 1/2...................9..............18...........36
2.......................16.............32...........64
*2 1/2..................38.............70...........140
*3......................64.............128..........256


* my best guess.

I hope you will find this easier to read and find this of value.

Sorry, I did not know the screen view was going to condense.
VERN

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#14 dynaco_dan

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:12 AM

Hi there;

I have mentioned in other posts regarding speaker fusing, something I am a firm believer in.

Mostly for Acoustic Research speakers, but Dynaco and Advent came up as well.

Particularly, when a 1 @ fast blow fuse, in an open fuse block, which I have recommended and used for decades now, only costs nickels compared to a blown tweeter.

The fast blow fuse characteristics are similar to a tweeters, but not the woofers.

The woofers characteristics follow the slow blow fuse.

Crownaudio.com has a more detailed explanation of both, I feel their suggestion is to use both type fuses for maximum protection.

Unfortunately, the prices of Bussmann FNM slow blow fuses, along with hardly ever mentioned, anywhere, Littlefuse FLM slow blow fuse have skyrocketed.

I don't own nor have I ever owned a Dynaco 416 power amplifier.

I will give you some data from their 416 manual which can still be used for other than Dynaco speaker products.



I am quoting without anyones permission and may leave out some words to keep this write-up brief. Credit to Dynaco Inc.,

Output fuse protection.

On the 416 and also the Dynaco 400, Dynaguard was used as part of their speaker protection in addition to series speaker fuses.

The Dynaguard circuit could be disabled leaving the fuses only.

They always suggested that Dynaguard be left at the very least at the 20 setting rather than off.

Since the power passed by a fuse varies with load impedance, and test signals have little correlation to music signals, and fuses vary in their tolerance of music overloads, the protective rating determination for a speaker is largely empirical. Logic would suggest the smallest value fuse which does not blow frequently at what are high, but nonetheless safe levels for your speaker. There are few speakers capable of safely handling more power than will blow a 2 ampere fuse.
The speaker manufacturer who specifies a fuse rating solves your problem. Lacking this, remember that a fuse will not blow until a sustained signal well above its rating is imposed for a time. A slo-blow fuse will allow appreciabley more overdrive that the same value standard fast blow type, and is thus not generally recommended for speaker protection. There are also very fast acting types usually used for instrumentation.

The lowest Dynaguard setting is the practical limit for assured operation of the protection circuit, yet some speakers need protection sooner- as little as 1/2 ampere, or 4 watts for a 16 ohm speaker, if the fuse blows at its rating. Tests have shown that musical signals which frequently cause the overload lamp to glow brightly in the minimum Dynaguard 20 position with an 8 ohm speaker will occassionally blow a 1 ampere fast blow fuse (nominally 8 watts). A 1 ampere slow blow type did not blow. Peaks up to the full power of the amplifier were sometime passed during these tests.

The rating of the 416 amp is;

Power at clipping, single channel, 2500 hz, less than 1% distortion.

235 watts @ 8 ohm
350 watts @ 4 ohm
450 watts @ 2 ohm
135 watts @ 16 ohm


The chart shows the highest sustained power which WILL NOT blow the fuses shown. Remember that speaker impedance typically rises well above its nominal value. Experience suggests that on this basis power levels of 10 watts are safe starting points for most high fidelity speakers using a single woofer.

FUSE SIZE (fast blow) speaker impedance

4 ohms 8 ohms 16 ohms

1/2 @ 1 watt 2 4
3/4 2.2 4.5 9
1 4 8 16
1 1/2 9 18 36
2 16 32 64
*2 1/2 38 70 140
*3 64 128 256


* my best guess.

I hope you will read and find this of value.
VERN

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#15 dynaco_dan

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:16 AM

>Hi there;
>
>To add to the fast fuse topic.
>
>In the "other" forum there was a issue with
>Dahlquist DQ-20 speaker sytem and a link to Dahlquist as
>well.
>
>I noted in the downloaded manual/brochure, they have a
>10" woofer and 3/4" tweeter and are rated at 4
>ohms.
>
>The 10" woofer has a 3.0 amp fast blow fuse, and the
>3/4" tweeter has a 0.8amp fast blow fuse.
>
>Only one fuseholder is visible and it is of the chassis mount
>style.
>
>The system also has a power rating, but I'm leaving that one
>alone.


Hi again;

To add to the fusing topic again, tonight, I found in the Snell forum, a link to Snell.

Their older Snell model A speaker system, 4 ohm 80 watt RMS/channel rated, has a woofer, mid and tweeter with the chassis type fuseholders.

The 10" woofer has a 3@ fast blow, the 4" mid has a 2 1/2 @ fast blow and the 1" tweeter has a 2@ fast blow fuse.

I may give experimenters a starting point if they should choose to adapt individual fuseholders to other speaker systems.

Good luck.
VERN

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#16 dynaco_dan

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:48 PM

Hi there;

To add to the fast fuse topic.

In the "other" forum there was a issue with Dahlquist DQ-20 speaker sytem and a link to Dahlquist as well.

I noted in the downloaded manual/brochure, they have a 10" woofer and 3/4" tweeter and are rated at 4 ohms.

The 10" woofer has a 3.0 amp fast blow fuse, and the 3/4" tweeter has a 0.8amp fast blow fuse.

Only one fuseholder is visible and it is of the chassis mount style.

The system also has a power rating, but I'm leaving that one alone.
VERN

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#17 dynaco_dan

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 06:03 AM

Just to follow up on Fuseone.com again.

I went back and left an email at their two primary sites and the have one for hiring and I left another message.

No replies to anything.

I was going to place a large order with them, oh well.
VERN

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#18 dynaco_dan

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 10:16 PM

>Hi there;
>
>If you should even visit www.electronicsurplus.com say hi and
>where you found their website address.
>
>I never asked for nor would I expect a discount but maybe if
>there is sufficient support by CSP members, maybe that
>business can offer a special buy to members.
>
>One can only hope.
>
>At $1.50 US per 2 amp Bussmann FNM slow blow fuse, excellent
>customer service, communication and packaging, they deserve
>our support.


Update Mar 22, 2007

There is still close to 300 Bussmann FNM2 fuses on-hand at $1.50 each.

Considering the usual cost is in the neighbourhood of $5 - 6.00 US each regularly, this is a substantial savings to members.
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#19 dynaco_dan

dynaco_dan

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:35 AM

Hi there;

Another example, a KLH Five speaker system, with a fast blow fuse holder mounted on the rear of the cabinet.

It may not have be done to the same high standard of installation that James did, but if it saved any drivers, it was worth it.

I have noticed that the fast blow fuses are closer to $.50 each now but what is a driver or drivers worth to you?

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#20 dynaco_dan

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 05:20 AM

Hi there;

If you should even visit www.electronicsurplus.com say hi and where you found their website address.

I never asked for nor would I expect a discount but maybe if there is sufficient support by CSP members, maybe that business can offer a special buy to members.

One can only hope.

At $1.50 US per 2 amp Bussmann FNM slow blow fuse, excellent customer service, communication and packaging, they deserve our support.
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