Home theater w/ sw30. 303, 302, 228, 208V speakers

[Guest ed_braley]

Hi, this is my first post here, though I've been an occasional visitor. You could say that I'm heavily invested in AR Classic reissue speakers. I'm planning to put them into my revised home theater and I'm seeking a sanity check from the experts on this forum.

I was heavily into audio several years ago when Accessories for less was offering the remaining stock of the AR Classic Series speakers. I had some spare cash, got carried away, and bought several pieces: (2) pairs of 208V, (2) pairs plus a single 338, (2) pairs of 302, a pair of 303, and an SW30 sub. They all have the black finishes. I've been using some of them in my two channel systems, and in a cobbled-up home theater, but now I want to reconfigure them to assemble two complete home theaters for different rooms in my house.

I think one of the systems is pretty well sorted out, but I'll describe it for review. We're putting a 5.1 system into our loft with a new flat screen TV, our Denon AVR-987 receiver and Denon SACD/DVD player. The (3) front speakers in this rig will be AR 338, and I'll orient the center channel speaker vertically under the wall mounted screen. The surrounds will be AR 208V, and the SW30 will handle the low frequencies. This loft system should be relatively simple for my kids to operate and I think the components should play together well.

The system for our larger family room is a bit more complicated. I've been hashing this one out for a few days, but I think I'm ready to start putting it together. I just need a center channel speaker to make it complete.

This family room theater will be a 6.1 system, and use external amplifiers with a receiver serving as preamp/processor. For now we're using a 36inch CRT screen, but perhaps we'll get a big flat panel later. This is the plan:

A Yamaha RX-V641 will serve as the pre/pro. The front main speakers will be AR 303 driven with a Yamaha B-2X at 200 watts/channel. A 100 watt/channel Hitachi HMA-8500MKII amp will drive the center channel speakers front and rear. I recall that the NHT Super Series speakers were reported to have the same voicing as these AR speakers, so I'd like to find an NHT SuperCenter for the front, and I may use one of my NHT SuperZeros for the wall mounted rear center channel. Another identical HMA 8500MKII will drive the left and right surround speakers, and I may use a pair of AR 338 speakers there. Given the 32 HZ capability of the AR 303 speakers, I'd like to try this system without a sub initially. I only possess one subwoofer at this time, and it's going into the loft system. The Yamaha RX-V641 manual indicates that the LFE information will be sent the mains in the event that no sub is configured into the system. I can get a sub later if this proves to be less than satisfactory. and I'll look for something that goes really low, like 20 Hz or so. But having that 32hz low-end in both front main speakers is very appealing and there's no sub integration required at all.

So, given that scenario, here are my questions:

1) Is the NHT SuperCenter a good tonal match for the AR 303 front main speakers? If not ,what would you folks recommend? I've been looking for an AR 205VC center channel but they're pretty rare. This is probably the trickiest part of the integration - getting a good tonal balance across the front L/C/R speakers, and it's a critical piece for a good sounding system.

2) Do the amplifier power ratings seem appropriate for these speakers in their respective placements?

3) Is the 3-way AR 338 a good choice for the surround speakers? Should I use the smaller simpler 208V speakers, or should I look for something different, like another set of NHT SuperZero or SuperOne speakers, for example? I'm trying to match the level and tone of the front with the 3 rear surrounds so I'm leaning towards bigger speakers and more power to drive them.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas you may have.

Ed.

[Steve F]

Ed,

Take a look at my post a few topics down in 'Use of Classic ARs with surround sound.' When you choose 'subwoofer--no' from your home theater receiver's set-up menu, the LFE ".1" info is indeed folded back into the front L/R channels, but at a -10dB level compared to what it would have been if it was sent on the .1 channel to a powered sub. So you're not getting the same level of bass signal.

Also, without a ".1" channel, you lose the ability to control the sub's level via the receiver's remote control. Even more important is this: with no sub, your receiver has to do all the "heavy lifting," of the full spectrum--LFE bass, regular bass, mids, and highs. When you use a powered sub, the sub's on-board amplifier does the tough low bass, leaving the receiver to loaf along from 80 Hz on up, never breaking an electronic sweat. So your LCR fron stage stays very clean, at any playback level.

Finally, with a separate sub, you can position the sub in the room where it sounds the best, and position your LCRs where they sound best. It's very rare that your sub (low bass) and LCRs (mid-bass, midrange, highs) will perform their best in the exact same location. That's another reason why separate subs are good.

For your center speaker, remember that virtually all soundtracks are mixed such that 50-75% of the sound comes from the center speaker. Don't skimp here, that for sure! Three identical LCRs is ideal, but don't fall into the old '70's-'80's 2-channel mindset of thinking that your Left and Right speakers are the most important. In Home Theater, it's the center speaker that determines your ultimate playback quality. Do not use an 8" 2-way C when your LRs are 12" 3-ways.

As to surrounds, monopoles will work satisfactorily only if they are not pointed directly at the listening area. The object of surrounds is to fill the listening area with non-directional, expansive ambient sound: the rustling of leaves in a forest, the reverberations of sonar 'bongs' in a submarine, the hustle and bustle of a city street. If you use direct radiators as surrounds, place them high above seated ear level on the sides of the room, and fire them straight across the room--NOT down at the listeners. Much better if you get real multi-directional bipole/dipole surround speakers. Remember, ONE pair of surround speakers in a home theater has to somehow try to mimic the non-directional effect of the 30 pairs of surround speakers that ring the side and back walls of a commercial movie theater. Pointing your one lonely pair of direct-radiating surrounds right at the listeners is exactly the wrong thing to do, so try to avoid that.

As for voicing, I believe that Ken Kantor did the NHT Zeros as well as your ARs, so they should be voice-compatible.

Steve F.

[Guest ed_braley]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply, and the pointer to your other post. I'm coming to the realization that home theater is a different application for audio technology than two channel high fidelity, and perhaps it's not the best fit for my speakers. But I already have them so I can audition them in this application.

Since I'm using all external amps, and the 303 mains are being driven by a 200 watt/channel Yamaha B-2X I think I'll have adequate power to deliver the LFE information. But your point about the 10dB level reduction and the lack of latitude in the physical placement of the bass frequency driver(s) has been noted. I'll try the system both with and without my SW30 sub to get a sense for just how significant the difference will be. I may find that I need to budget for a sub, after all. And if

I do that, perhaps I should use smaller mains. Maybe the smaller 338 speakers would be better than the 303 if I use a sub.

I realize the importance of the center channel speaker, and I wasn't planning to go cheap there. There's no room under the existing TV to fit another bookshelf speaker, so I need to get a center speaker in a horizontal cabinet. Other than the NHT Super series, I don't know which center channel speakers will be a good voice match for the 303, 302 or 338 AR speakers, so I'm at a loss to know what else to look for.

The input on the rear surrounds is very helpful, too. I'll have to experiment with different placements to find out what works best.

BTW, I just got a chuckle when I realized that I'll be doing a lot of "heavy lifting", as you put it. I'll need to move all these amps and speaker cabinets around as I strive for the best results ;-)

Thanks again,

Ed.

[administrator]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply, and the pointer to your other post. I'm coming to the realization that home theater is a different application for audio technology than two channel high fidelity, and perhaps it's not the best fit for my speakers. But I already have them so I can audition them in this application.

Since I'm using all external amps, and the 303 mains are being driven by a 200 watt/channel Yamaha B-2X I think I'll have adequate power to deliver the LFE information. But your point about the 10dB level reduction and the lack of latitude in the physical placement of the bass frequency driver(s) has been noted. I'll try the system both with and without my SW30 sub to get a sense for just how significant the difference will be. I may find that I need to budget for a sub, after all. And if

I do that, perhaps I should use smaller mains. Maybe the smaller 338 speakers would be better than the 303 if I use a sub.

I realize the importance of the center channel speaker, and I wasn't planning to go cheap there. There's no room under the existing TV to fit another bookshelf speaker, so I need to get a center speaker in a horizontal cabinet. Other than the NHT Super series, I don't know which center channel speakers will be a good voice match for the 303, 302 or 338 AR speakers, so I'm at a loss to know what else to look for.

The input on the rear surrounds is very helpful, too. I'll have to experiment with different placements to find out what works best.

BTW, I just got a chuckle when I realized that I'll be doing a lot of "heavy lifting", as you put it. I'll need to move all these amps and speaker cabinets around as I strive for the best results ;-)

Thanks again,

Ed.

Hi Ed,

If you browse back a bit you'll see my post about using four AR-303a in my home theatre setup. I have the AR-303 series center channel in a closet because I don't have a way to mount it properly. I may have to get a contractor, electrician, and Steve F over my house to get things "sorted" as my British friends say.

I never saw an AR-303 series subwoofer for sale, but wish I had looked harder. In any case, even with the dip in bass Steve noted when low frequencies are distributed by the surround processor, sometimes it feels like the 303a woofers are going to knock me through the wall.

Mark

[Guest ed_braley]

Mark,

Did you ever try the AR center channel speaker to get a sense for how well it blended with the 303 mains? I'm curious to know if it was a good tonal match. I haven't seen an AR center, but I've got dibs on a couple of older NHT center channel speakers with a dome tweeter similar to the one used in these AR 3xx bookshelf speakers. If the one I get doesn't blend I'll move it to the rear center and try something else in front. This may be an interim step until I get the new TV.

I should have my Yamaha pre/pro (receiver) on Monday, and I'm going to put this rig together. I'll try those 303 mains both with and without the sub, and I'll stick a little NHT SuperZero in my TV stand to serve as a center channel until I get a better speaker for that location. This will keep me busy for a few days/weeks, and who knows, I may get a decent sounding system together eventually. I'll probably end up with another subwoofer for this theater, maybe a 15inch.

With 800 rms watts of power distributed over 6 channels, and a 15 inch sub, it should sing and boom ;-) Hmm, I hope the 20amp service is sufficient to run all that amplification! I may need to add some juice in that family room...

Once the audio is configured I'm going to look for a big flat panel TV and a high-def DVD player. With a wall mounted screen I'll have some free floor space in front of the visual display, at that point I may revise the system and run AR 302 speakers right across the front 3 channels. That'll blend.

This system may be overkill, but I have the amps and the speakers, and I'm really jazzed to put them all together to find out just what it can do. Why not? I'll swap things around until it works. If I can get it all to blend it could be simply awesome.

Ed.

[Steve F]

Ed,

There's no such thing as 'overkill.' A great sound system enhances the total viewing experience immeasurably. Scenes become dramatic that you never realized were dramatic, and the subtle sonic details presented by a great audio system draw you into the film like never before.

Great film sound is present on every movie, not just on the obvious sonic special-effects sci-fi blockbusters. As a mater of fact, you'll appreciate real high-fidelity sound more on movies like Seabiscuit and other 'thinking' movies. In the climactic race scene between underdog Seabiscuit and favorite War Admiral, it begins with an intentionally low-fi reproduction of the original 1938 AM radio transmission, with B&W still pics on the screen, then it switches to the full-color motion of the movie, complete with the impactful low-frequency pounding of the horses' hoofs on the track as they round the bend. The juxtaposition is stunning, and the effect would be totally lost without a top-flight audio system. This scene is the classic example of that over-used phrase "what the director intended," and it's the very raison d'etre of a great HT audio system.

Three 302's across the front sounds like a great plan. You might want to consider two 12" subs placed asymmetrically in the room which will randomize the room's standing waves and deliver a smoother in-room bass response.

Steve F.

[chelsideren]

It is not east to install speaker at the right place. You can consult with a professional expert in this matter.

[mluong303]

Hi Ed,

On your heading listed AR 228 but in the body are AR 338, which do you have for 5 pieces? Hopefully is the AR 338.

I have three options for you to think about and it is strictly my preference. You have to try out what fits your expectation and listening environment.

1) Using 4 x AR 302 for Front R+L and Rear R/L, 2 x AR 338 for Center and 1 x AR 338 Rear Center plus 2 x AR SW30.

2) Using 5 x AR 338 for all 5 channels and 1 x AR 228(or AR 208V) for Rear Center plus 1 x AR SW30 will save you a lot of money on Amps!

3) If money is not an issue then try this set up and invite Ken Kantor over for movies and concert videos...

AR 303 Front R/L, 2 x AR 338 for center and 3 x AR 302 for Rear R/L + Rear Center plus 2 x AR SW30. However this ultimate set up needs matched amps and a lot of clean Power to make it sound impressive. I would suggest 2x Aragon 8008x3 Amps or 3 x Adcom GFA5500 power amplifiers.

I had tried 2 x AR303a for Front R/L, 2 x AR 338 for Center and 2 x AR302T for Rear R/L but didn't have enough powers to make them sound good to my ears so I gave up on them! The 12" active subwoofer I used at the time was by Miller & Kreisel.

Personally I like the 2nd option the best since the main 5 speakers using the same model. You really got the seamless blend when the sound effects travel through out different direction from one speaker to the next.

Minh Luong

[genek]

This thread hadn't had a new post in three years until yesterday. I suspect that Ed has it worked out one way or the other by now.

[mocmoon]

Hi Ed,

On your heading listed AR 228 but in the body are AR 338, which do you have for 5 pieces? Hopefully is the AR 338.

I have three options for you to think about and it is strictly my preference. You have to try out what fits your expectation and listening environment.

1) Using 4 x AR 302 for Front R+L and Rear R/L, 2 x AR 338 for Center and 1 x AR 338 Rear Center plus 2 x AR SW30.

2) Using 5 x AR 338 for all 5 channels and 1 x AR 228(or AR 208V) for Rear Center plus 1 x AR SW30 will save you a lot of money on Amps!

3) If money is not an issue then try this set up and invite Ken Kantor over for movies and concert videos...

AR 303 Front R/L, 2 x AR 338 for center and 3 x AR 302 for Rear R/L + Rear Center plus 2 x AR SW30. However this ultimate set up needs matched amps and a lot of clean Power to make it sound impressive. I would suggest 2x Aragon 8008x3 Amps or 3 x Adcom GFA5500 power amplifiers.

I had tried 2 x AR303a for Front R/L, 2 x AR 338 for Center and 2 x AR302T for Rear R/L but didn't have enough powers to make them sound good to my ears so I gave up on them! The 12" active subwoofer I used at the time was by Miller & Kreisel.

Personally I like the 2nd option the best since the main 5 speakers using the same model. You really got the seamless blend when the sound effects travel through out different direction from one speaker to the next.

Minh Luong

Dear Minh

I'm building a 9.2 HT system using AR speakers, and would like to seek your view on few things, especially with regards to the center speakers. My current system detail below:

Front: AR9*2

Front wide: ARMST*2

Surround: ARLST*2

Surround back: AR4*2

Center: AR4*2

Subwoofer: AR3a*2 (using bass terminal only)

Pre/pro: Intergra 80.2

MC2500: front channels

MC2250: subwoofer channels

The remaining channels are driven by Intergra DTA 9.4 7 channel amps @ 120w/channel/8ohm or 240w/channel/4 ohm, and capable to go down to 2ohm (at least on paper)

My biggest concern is now the center speakers, and my plan is to DIY a center speaker following the design of the AR9 upper range. I love the AR9 so much that I'd like to have a pair of AR9 upper range as center speaker. Currently I have collected all the parts needed (2*tweeters, 2*dome midrange, 2*lower midrange - all original AR9 parts plus caps and chokes to AR9 crossover specifications).

I do some research on this forum, and find your idea of using 2 AR338 as center speaker a great one. Although AR338 is not commonly available in the used market, they are quite cheap when they are for sales, and much less hassle than building a speaker myself. My question to you relates to the voicing of the 338. I've never listened to the 338 before (I listened to the 303 before, and do not like them very much as they sound fairly "hard/rigid" to my ears, in comparison to the 3 and 3a). But since you have experience with both the 338 and 9, can you give me some thoughts on this.

Many thanks and Happy Holidays,

Viet Anh