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KLH Model Five Crossover photos.


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#1 Rhubarb

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:51 PM

First post here. Very happy to be a member of this ultra informative forum.

I have been using the schematics, photos and information in the KLH section of the library, as well as here on the forum, to guide my restoration of a pair of Model Fives I recently acquired.

I just wanted to post a picture of what I found for my x-overs in my Fives.

xover_with_values.JPG

I found caps as follows:

1) 25 uF
1) 16 uF
1) 4 uf
1) 2 x 4 MFD
1) 3 MFD

and these ceramic resistors:

2) 15 ohm 10%
1) 10 ohm 10%
1) 6 ohm 10%
1) 5 ohm 10%

I am in the process of ordering Dayton poly metalized caps.

If anyone has any insight or personal experiences to add, that would be GREAT! :rolleyes:


#2 JKent

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 12:37 AM

Hi and welcome
Here is a thread that shows one set of Five xovers I recapped with Daytons, and another recapped with ginormous Clarity Caps.
http://www.classicsp...amp;#entry74009
One suggestion: Look at the resistors very critically. I had one burned resistor in a Five and a disintegrated one in a Twelve. Maybe get some 7 or 10 watt resistors, or the nice Mills resistors PE sells.
Good luck!
Kent

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#3 Rhubarb

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:18 AM

Hi and welcome
Here is a thread that shows one set of Five xovers I recapped with Daytons, and another recapped with ginormous Clarity Caps.
http://www.classicsp...amp;#entry74009
One suggestion: Look at the resistors very critically. I had one burned resistor in a Five and a disintegrated one in a Twelve. Maybe get some 7 or 10 watt resistors, or the nice Mills resistors PE sells.
Good luck!
Kent


Thanks for the reply Kent.

I have read through that post a couple of times, very good, and informative stuff, indeed.

I was wondering, if it is imperative to replace the resistors? I haven't tested any of them yet, but I have heard that they do go bad. Although, I suppose I might as well, while I'm in there. Do I replace with the same values, or do I adjust? I am pretty new (Read: First recap.) when it comes to crossover rebuilds. I guess a DMM test to see if the are in spec, will tell the tale. I plan on getting my caps from PE so I guess adding some Mills resistors to the odrder will not be and issue.

It looks my my x-over has one more cap than yours...or am I just not seeing this properly.
Posted Image

And, if I may, one more question...What are your impressions of the Dayton caps vs. the Clarity caps? I don't have the best ears, so I think the Daytons will be just fine.

So this is my parts list (so far) from parts express:

2) Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

8) Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Puts me at $43.12 or $21.56 per speaker before shipping.

#4 JKent

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 03:04 AM

Hi Dan
No--it is not imperative to replace the resistors, but LOOK at them and be sure they are not burned, also test them. If you do replace, use the same value but bump up the wattage to 7 or 10. You don't need fancy resistors--I just found the Mills easy to work with. Attached is a photo of a burned 5 watt resistor from the Five. A 5 watt in my KLH Model Twelves was burned so badly it cracked in half and charred the plywood base! (take at look at the photo near the bottom of this thread: http://www.classicsp...amp;#entry73728 )

That Clarity Caps job was a favor for a friend. He claims they sound great. To me the Daytons are good and I don't think I hear a difference. In fact, Carli mylar caps from Madisound are a very good choice. By the way--I think you need six 4uF, not 8, right? You have the same number of caps as I have. The xo on the left in the photo shows the 25uF and the 16uF (15, really) in the upper left corner, and a bundle of three 4uF and one 3uF in the bottom right area. And if you use Daytons get 15uF, not 12. The originals are 16uF. You have about 10% leeway, so you should not go below 14.4uF.

If you shop at Madisound for the Carli caps, here's what you can get:
2) 2.7Uf @ $1 each
6) 3.9uF @ 1.15 ea
2) 15uF @ 3.40 ea

for your two 25uF you can either get Solens at 9.90 each,or parallel a 20uF + 4.7uF ($5 + 1.25)or even a 15uF Carli and a 10uF "surplus" ($3.40 + .90 ea).

Madisound has 10 watt Eagle resistors in the correct values for $1.20 ea.

So you could get all the caps for under $25, add in 10 resistors if you like and you're at about $37 total, + S/H

Kent

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J. Kent Hollingsworth

#5 Rhubarb

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:05 AM

OK, Thanks for the heads-up. I will most definitely check Madisound, the prices sound nice. I'll check the resistors to make damn sure thy aren't shot.

So here are my thoughts for cap replacement:

1) 25 uF
1) 16 uF
1) 4 uf
1) 2 x 4 MFD
1) 3 MFD


2) Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

8) Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor



One 25uF to replace each 25uF.

One 4uF in parallel with one 12uF to replace each 16uF.

Two 4uF to replace each 2x4uF.

One 3uF to replace each 3uF.

Is this not the proper route to take?

Thanks for all the advice, I can't imagine trying to go this without some help....

#6 JKent

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:23 AM

One 25uF to replace each 25uF.

One 4uF in parallel with one 12uF to replace each 16uF.

Two 4uF to replace each 2x4uF.

One 3uF to replace each 3uF.


You don't need exactly 16uF. Just use a 15uF.
+/- 10% is fine. If you do go with Madisound use the values I gave you.
And you will need three 4uFs--not two-- per spkr.

J. Kent Hollingsworth

#7 Rhubarb

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:02 AM

One 25uF to replace each 25uF.

One 4uF in parallel with one 12uF to replace each 16uF.

Two 4uF to replace each 2x4uF.

One 3uF to replace each 3uF.


Whoopsie! I forgot:

One 4uF to replace each 4uf.

#8 Rhubarb

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:39 AM

OK, so using the EXACT same caps isn't the goal here...it's more about being within a tolerance, as specified on the original caps.

In my research I've deduced that one (or two or three) could dance round and round on the subject of replacement caps and still never come to common ground.

Would it behoove me to try and match the original caps as close as I can?

I could do quasi-fancy with Madisound:

2) Solen 25uF
2) Bennic 16uF
6) Solen 4uF
2) Solen 3uF

#9 JKent

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 04:01 PM

In my research I've deduced that one (or two or three) could dance round and round on the subject of replacement caps and still never come to common ground.


Yes. You will find many many strong opinions and you will have to decide for yourself. Bear in mind the original speakers used electrolytics. The drawback to electrolytics is that they dry up and go out of spec after 15 or 20 years or so. Classic speakers are at least twice that age, so they need new caps. Modern electrolytics are probably better and they are dirt cheap. You could recap with NON-POLAR electrolytics (aka npe) and have perfectly good speakers for the next 20 years, at least. Film caps (mylar, polypropylene, etc) last "forever." They are not terribly expensive, so most restorers use them. Now, this is the BIG question: Does one cap "sound better" than another? This kind of debate has gone on around everything from cables to amplifiers to....capacitors. IMHO, some people may be able to hear differences between caps. Is different better? If you think cap A sounds "better" than cap B, where is the point of diminishing returns? Take the example of a 12uF cap. A Bennic npe costs 85 cents. A Carli mylar is $2.75. A Solen (very popular) is $5.95. Is the Solen twice as good as the Carli? How about a Clarity Cap MR? That's $283. Does it sound 300 times better than the npe?

This is all controversial. I've been tutored by some of the masters here, but even they can disagree. In my first AR2ax project, one member whom I respect advised me to go with Zen caps. They were a little more expensive than Daytons or Solens. OTOH another senior member whom I respect has advised me that the Carlis are perfectly good caps at a bargain price. I can't hear a difference, but I don't claim to have "golden ears." My first KLH Twelve recap was with all NPEs. The ones I have now are Carli mylars + NPE for the 50uF values, because they were the only ones that would fit under the hood. The Twelves I did for CSP member Rob used paralleled NPE + mylar for the 50uF value.

SO... YOU will have to decide what to use. You know your own budget and your own ears. I now use Carlis for the most part, but that's MY preference. And if I happen to be placing a Parts Express order and need a couple of caps I'll go with Daytons to avoid paying S/H to two different mailorder places. What YOU use is entirely up to you. If you like "quasi fancy" fine--they're YOUR speakers and using Solen and Bennic film caps (or the original idea of getting Daytons) will work out fine. My only advice is to make sure the values are within 10% of the originals and check those resistors! Oh yes, and have fun with it! :rolleyes:
Kent

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#10 Rhubarb

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 05:41 PM

Kent,

Thanks again fro all the great information. Your guidance is really helping make this a painless process.

Very cool!

-Pie Plant.

#11 Rhubarb

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:28 PM

HPIM1857.jpg

Just wanted to post a photo of the finished crossovers. I ended up going with the Daytons. I did not replace any resistors since they all tested out a-ok.

Thanks for the help, Kent.

These things sound great!

#12 JKent

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:18 AM

Looks good! Nice neat job! What did you use for the larger value caps? Looks like you paralleled a couple to make a larger value.
Happy listening!
Kent
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#13 Rhubarb

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:22 PM

I ended up using a 12uF and a 4uF in parallel to replace the 16MFD. I know it wasn't necessary, but I wanted to make sure I but the same values in that I took out. No scientific reason, since I don't really know what I'm doing, just a feeling or hunch.

2) Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

8) Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

The 3.0uf were back order for a couple of weeks, so I had these things sitting around, open with 3/4 of the caps replaced. It was pretty frustrating, I couldn't wait to hear them.

All I can say is that the difference I noticed when I finally got them hooked up to my Sherwood S-8900A was night and day. I can't say 100% for sure what the difference was, since they were unable to be listened to for 4 weeks, But I know there was a difference.

#14 administrator

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 09:05 PM

I ended up using a 12uF and a 4uF in parallel to replace the 16MFD. I know it wasn't necessary, but I wanted to make sure I but the same values in that I took out. No scientific reason, since I don't really know what I'm doing, just a feeling or hunch.

2) Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

8) Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

2) Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

The 3.0uf were back order for a couple of weeks, so I had these things sitting around, open with 3/4 of the caps replaced. It was pretty frustrating, I couldn't wait to hear them.

All I can say is that the difference I noticed when I finally got them hooked up to my Sherwood S-8900A was night and day. I can't say 100% for sure what the difference was, since they were unable to be listened to for 4 weeks, But I know there was a difference.


FYI, thanks to Carl the factory schematic is now available in the Library.

Mark

#15 Dean

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:54 PM

FYI, thanks to Carl the factory schematic is now available in the Library.

Mark


Hello,
I just found this discussion on rebuilding the crossovers in KLH model 5s. I have a set in the attic, old but in excellent shape. They have been stored in boxes for 20 plus years. I put them away when I lost output from the tweeters. From the discussion, I now surmise that I probably need to rebuild my crossovers. I am pretty handy and can probably do this with the help of the posted information. The lists of replacement caps are especially helpful.
Can you please advise me as to how I can obtain a picture or copy of the factory schematic for the KLH Model 5 crossover that was referenced "FYI, thanks to Carl the factory schematic is now available in the Library...Mark"
Thanks
Dean Roberts

#16 JKent

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:11 PM

Welcome Dean!
At the top of this page, click “The Classic Speaker Home Page”
When you get there, click “Library”
Then “KLH”
Then “KLH 5”
Then “Schematics”
Stuck? Just click here:
http://www.classicsp...ematicsservice/

If you are restoring these, you may want to think about replacing the resistors. KLH used 5 watt resistors and I've seen burned ones in the Model Five and Model Twelve. New ones are cheap, so why not.

btw--while you're poking around the Library, look at the AR section and the excellent AR3a restoration manual. A lot of tips there apply to all vintage speakers, such as how to seal the woofer to the baffle when you reassemble the speakers.

Good luck!

Kent



J. Kent Hollingsworth




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