272 replies to this topic

[soundminded]

Thanks everyone!

What a great thread, please keep the barbs down though.

And, please guys, JA is really a good and thoughtful man and does his best at a-n-y project he is involved in.

Ken, it's good to see you post up too. You have a long history in the industry and have garnered much respect.

To the matter at hand: I indeed got a call today and Jim is providing a restored pair. He'll have them down with in a week and a half.

I'll turn in finished copy on or before May 15. I trully respect the companies and products that this project covers and I'll do a great job (for all of us.)

Very sincerely,

Peter Breuninger

When you make your evaluation, how about turning the treble control up a couple of notches the way AR did in its live versus recorded comparisons to get the flattest response. We know that there is a deliberate high end rolloff so to be fair, that would have to be taken into account and compensated for...to make the test as close as comparable to the way AR operated them themselves. Otherwise, I expect you to tell us there is a high end rolloff that is audible and that those speakers are not up to snuff compared to others.

[Pete B]

My first reaction to claims that today's designers have better insights on speaker design than Villchur, Kloss and Allison and that all their design goals can be equalled or bettered with today's technology is always "Where's the showroom, I have a credit card and I'm not afraid to use it." It's only when I'm told there is no product to back up the claim (unless I'm prepared to break out a power saw and mutilate existing product to install something that has never actually been tested against the originals head-to-head) that I get irritated. I'm tired of hearing pie-in-the-sky claims that better product can be produced; I want to hear the better product. So far, a "superior AR-3a" that sounds any better than Ken's last attempt continues to be the audio industry's equivalent of cold fusion.

We've heard about your credit card a few times, so tell us, how much
are you willing to spend for a system that betters the 3a to your satisfaction?
This is a serious question.

[genek]

We've heard about your credit card a few times, so tell us, how much
are you willing to spend for a system that betters the 3a to your satisfaction?
This is a serious question.

So far, the only speakers I've encountered whose price made me say "Are you nuts?" all had the name "Wilson" on them.

Just for the sake of arguement, let's set the bar at $10k with an option for another $10k if I really, really fall in love with both the sound and the cosmetics. That's about as much as I could put on the card and pay off in one month without having to cash in a CD or sell stocks (it's a bad time to sell stocks). That would be for speakers that, in addition to making me forget my 3a's in every way, are backed by a warranty, service and spare parts experience comparable to AR under Villchur.

If I'm going to find myself having to tear my own speakers apart and prowl eBay for spares in 10 years, drop the bar to $1200 max (that's the highest I can recall seeing a professionally restored pair of 3a's selling for), plus maybe that much again to stockpile parts for the future. The difference is the value I set on my own time and trouble.

[Pete B]

So far, the only speakers I've encountered whose price made me say "Are you nuts?" all had the name "Wilson" on them.

Just for the sake of arguement, let's set the bar at $10k with an option for another $10k if I really, really fall in love with both the sound and the cosmetics. That's about as much as I could put on the card and pay off in one month without having to cash in a CD or sell stocks (it's a bad time to sell stocks). That would be for speakers that, in addition to making me forget my 3a's in every way, are backed by a warranty, service and spare parts experience comparable to AR under Villchur.

If I'm going to find myself having to tear my own speakers apart and prowl eBay for spares in 10 years, drop the bar to $1200 max (that's the highest I can recall seeing a professionally restored pair of 3a's selling for), plus maybe that much again to stockpile parts for the future. The difference is the value I set on my own time and trouble.

I see, interesting, and again just out of curiousity what sort of electronics are you using
to drive your current 3a's?

[kkantor]

I tend to be insulting and dismissive as a matter of style; ask anybody on the old rec.audio.opinion usenet site where I used to hang out way too much. Insult swapping was SOP at that location. Often, the only way to get somebody's attention and get them to say what they really mean is to twist their tails a bit.

In any case, we have us a peaceful crowd of AR fans here, and when somebody (anybody) comes in and, politely or not, basically makes claims about the inferiority of the product line, I find that to be, as you noted, arrogant, insulting and dismissive - and immature - as simple as that. Sure, we can have debates about the good and bad points we find with AR speakers of the "classic" era, but some of the negative things being said about the product line (and indirectly about the competence of Villchur and Allison) are going to rile some of the regulars.

And I can say that even though I am a relative newcomer here, at least on a regular basis.

Howard Ferstler

1- The crowd only becomes unpeaceful when people rise to provocations, and the thread goes critical. I'm just trying to be a little graphite in the reactor, here.

2- You fully well know my history on rao, I think: I enjoy a good work-'em-up and smack-'em-down as much as anyone. But, this ain't RAO, and I don't believe many people want it to become RAO.

3- Corey is not a jerk, any more than reviewers who have trashed my products and philosophies are jerks.

4- In the Jr. High School crowd I hung with, there was constant bitter debate about which guitarist and which guitar. "Clapton is God." "Clapton can't lick Hendrix's [frets]." "No real guitarist plays Tele's. Only Page, and he's a fag." "You're a fag, and you like Simon and Garfunkle!" "Do not." "Do so." You would think the whole world took sides like this. What a shock it was to grow up and learn that 99% of these guys were friends, respected each other, borrowed each other's guitars, went to each other's shows. Likewise in audio. Most pros really respect each other, and find kindred spirits in people who have figured out how to survive in the business. Controversy sells, and nobody is above that. But, 99.999% of it is theater.

5- The world is impure. Fight it! Really. Just don't set up false dichotomies. Guys on one coast get busted for giving coke to their larger retailers. Guys on the other coast go to jail for taking kickbacks from their suppliers. On and on. Hifi was a big industry in those days, ad budgets were 7-figures, and it could support much more corruption than now. If you don't think AR did it's best to wine, dine and strong-arm the mags, well, you must have been at a different party. Only the engineers never got any, as usual. "Yes sir. Yes, I will have it by Monday. I promise! Of course I didn't have any New Years Eve plans, sir... I know CES is always the first week in January!"

-k

[soundminded]

So far, the only speakers I've encountered whose price made me say "Are you nuts?" all had the name "Wilson" on them.

Just for the sake of arguement, let's set the bar at $10k with an option for another $10k if I really, really fall in love with both the sound and the cosmetics. That's about as much as I could put on the card and pay off in one month without having to cash in a CD or sell stocks (it's a bad time to sell stocks). That would be for speakers that, in addition to making me forget my 3a's in every way, are backed by a warranty, service and spare parts experience comparable to AR under Villchur.

If I'm going to find myself having to tear my own speakers apart and prowl eBay for spares in 10 years, drop the bar to $1200 max (that's the highest I can recall seeing a professionally restored pair of 3a's selling for), plus maybe that much again to stockpile parts for the future. The difference is the value I set on my own time and trouble.

Are you nuts? Even a pair of lowly Revel Salon Ultimas will set you back a good $15K. Now Audio Note used to top out at $125,000. That got you two 2-way 8" speakers in large bookshelf enclosures and about 100 pounds of silver used in the crossover network capacitors (I'm not making this stuff up folks, that's real.) Von Schweikert's best will set you back around $150,000 but isn't it worth it? It won't be obsolete for at least another year or two. It just obsoleted his $125,000 version. There are plenty of other choices in that range too. A lot of people will be only too happy to take your money. Hey, if Kantor can do it, so can I. Maybe I'll go in the business myself Some mdf, some glue, a saw, a router, some veneer, a little linseed oil, and oh yes, some Parts express speakers and crossovers and who knows, I might be a world famous speaker designer too. Hey Peter Brunhilda or whatever your name is, don't leave just yet. I've got something I want you to hear.

[genek]

I see, interesting, and again just out of curiousity what sort of electronics are you using
to drive your current 3a's?

Not enough, really. After some movers ran over my old 120WPC AR "W" receiver with a forklift I hooked them to an HK750 (70WPC@4ohms on a good day) "temporarily" until I could get something else, then life happened and I never got around to it because the only decent audio dealer here seems to specialize in electronics with no tone controls. I have an unused HT preamp I picked up on a whim but also never got around to using, got any suggestions for a 5-channel power amp with at least 150-200 WPC? Might as well take the plunge into gear that will give me the option of surround sound in case soundminded ever lines up a licensee.

Maybe the prospect of selling me a whole new amplifier/speaker combo will tempt someone into putting those speakers into production...?

[genek]

Are you nuts? Even a pair of lowly Revel Salon Ultimas will set you back a good $15K. Now Audio Note used to top out at $125,000. That got you two 2-way 8" speakers in large bookshelf enclosures and about 100 pounds of silver used in the crossover network capacitors (I'm not making this stuff up folks, that's real.) Von Schweikert's best will set you back around $150,000 but isn't it worth it? It won't be obsolete for at least another year or two. It just obsoleted his $125,000 version. There are plenty of other choices in that range too. A lot of people will be only too happy to take your money.

You're forgetting the "really, really fall in love with both the sound and the cosmetics" part. Most of the models you just described never made it to the point where I asked the price. And now the Wilsons have morphed into dayglo props from the new "Star Trek" movie. I guess they don't have trees in Utah.

Maybe I'll go in the business myself Some mdf, some glue, a saw, a router, some veneer, a little linseed oil, and oh yes, some Parts express speakers and crossovers and who knows, I might be a world famous speaker designer too. Hey Peter Brunhilda or whatever your name is, don't leave just yet. I've got something I want you to hear.

My guess is you'd also have to put about $50k into some sort of bonded escrow to guarantee my "AR under Villchur" customer exerience. Unless you're planning on putting in a bid to fill my $2500 "maintain it myself" RFQ.

[Zilch]

My first reaction to claims that today's designers have better insights on speaker design than Villchur, Kloss and Allison and that all their design goals can be equalled or bettered with today's technology is always "Where's the showroom, I have a credit card and I'm not afraid to use it." It's only when I'm told there is no product to back up the claim (unless I'm prepared to break out a power saw and mutilate existing product to install something that has never actually been tested against the originals head-to-head) that I get irritated. I'm tired of hearing pie-in-the-sky claims that better product can be produced; I want to hear the better product. So far, a "superior AR-3a" that sounds any better than Ken's last attempt continues to be the audio industry's equivalent of cold fusion.

Easy: no market.

You're gonna hafta DIY....

[genek]

Easy: no market.
You're gonna hafta DIY....

Been there, done that. Wouldn't have if I could've just bought new.

[Pete B]

.... Hifi was a big industry in those days, ad budgets were 7-figures, and it could support much more corruption than now. If you don't think AR did it's best to wine, dine and strong-arm the mags, well, you must have been at a different party.
...

-k

Good to see you pointing this out, rather than me, or should I say admitting it.
I knew about it, just never said anything due to the expected response here, LOL!

[Pete B]

Not enough, really. After some movers ran over my old 120WPC AR "W" receiver with a forklift I hooked them to an HK750 (70WPC@4ohms on a good day) "temporarily" until I could get something else, then life happened and I never got around to it because the only decent audio dealer here seems to specialize in electronics with no tone controls. I have an unused HT preamp I picked up on a whim but also never got around to using, got any suggestions for a 5-channel power amp with at least 150-200 WPC? Might as well take the plunge into gear that will give me the option of surround sound in case soundminded ever lines up a licensee.

Maybe the prospect of selling me a whole new amplifier/speaker combo will tempt someone into putting those speakers into production...?

I see, and what modern speakers have you tried that did not perform well?
I mean actually brought home and spent some time with in your own familiar
acoustic space?

[genek]

I see, and what modern speakers have you tried that did not perform well?
I mean actually brought home and spent some time with in your own familiar
acoustic space?

None. If I don't like them at least a little in the showroom, things are unlikely to get any better at home.

The last "new" speaker I home trialed was a pair of AR-303's more than 10 years ago. I liked the sound well enough, but for some reason the only ones available were the black laminate model and I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on speakers in fake wood cabinets. I actually toyed momentarily with the idea of buying them anyway, then pulling the drivers and having a cabinet maker peel off the laminate and veneer them. Maybe I should have, but who knew it was going to be the last time I'd hear something I wanted to try at home? I learned much later and too late that there had been a version in real wood. Rosewood. Drat.

Ultimately, our choices in life tend to be severely limited by our preferences.

[kkantor]

Good to see you pointing this out, rather than me, or should I say admitting it.
I knew about it, just never said anything due to the expected response here, LOL!

- It is clear from my post, but not your quotation of my post, that it was a ubiquitous problem, and not in any way specific to AR.

- Your choice of the term "admitting it" implies that I denied it, or felt some internal resistance about sharing it, and was culpable in it. Since that is obviously not the case, and I brought the whole matter up entirely voluntarily to illustrate a point, I find your terminology strangely accusatory. If I am off base, I apologize. If I am correct, please direct your anxieties elsewhere.

- Hmmm, so you delight in rocking the boat with investigative journalism and challenging theses on many subjects, but you didn't want to even mention your exposure to a practice that was widespread at the time, because of the expected response here? Am I understanding this right?

-k

[soundminded]

None. If I don't like them at least a little in the showroom, things are unlikely to get any better at home.

The last "new" speaker I home trialed was a pair of AR-303's more than 10 years ago. I liked the sound well enough, but for some reason the only ones available were the black laminate model and I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on speakers in fake wood cabinets. I actually toyed momentarily with the idea of buying them anyway, then pulling the drivers and having a cabinet maker peel off the laminate and veneer them. Maybe I should have, but who knew it was going to be the last time I'd hear something I wanted to try at home? I learned much later and too late that there had been a version in real wood. Rosewood. Drat.

Ultimately, our choices in life tend to be severely limited by our preferences.

A few years ago, I listened to the Martin Logan Summits. They were powered by a 400 wpc Krell amplifier and a McIntosh preamp, the source was a McIntosh cd player. You'd need a forklift just to move the Amplifier. I counted at least five serious FR errors on the recordings of piano and violin I listened to. Horrible. At the VTV show, I listened to a lot of equipment. It all just sounded like Hi Fi equipment to me. The most expensive was the TOTL Audio Note speakers at $125,000. Because of the ravings by posters on other sites I'd visited at the time, I was curious about them and there were no dealers near me, few in North America. I had no idea what the fuss was about. When I entered the room, blaring rock music was playing. The owner of the company was there. He was complaining about the room. Of course the first thing that occurred to me (after is this guy deaf, can he hear anything at all) is that like just about every other speaker there, no engineering provision was made in the design to adjust for this inevitable important variable. He told me he attended live rock concerts regularly. He played one of the discs I'd bought with me, Marian McPartland Live at Maybeck Recital Hall Volume Nine. I think it's a fine recording of a Baldwin SD-10 piano and unlike some in my household who turn their noses up at Baldwins now that we also own a Steinway too, I have a particular fondness for that piano (not better than a Steinway, just different. Colder and I admit more brilliant.) This disc strikes me as being skewed toward a rolled off high end which needs to be carefully compensated for compared to the average recording. Nevertheless, the AN speakers made the piano sound thin and tinny to my ears. Of all the speakers I heard there, the Opera Tibaldi sounded best to me. With 4 indirect firing tweeters, it came closest to my own experiments (not their equal of course.) I think they were around $18,000. When I left AN, the guy was playing a re-release of 1940s Bing Crosby recordings. Interesting, not one other visitor I saw at that show brought even one recording with him to try out. I met someone there I knew and we heard a few speakers together. He liked one that was a one way speaker. I don't think it put out much above 10 or 12 khz which may be beyond his hearing range anyway, he was in his mid 80s. Needless to say, to my ears it was awful. The one thing I learned that day was that there is a different sound to tubes than to transistors. There was only one solid state amplifier at that show and when I heard it, I knew it instantly. It reminded me why I'd given up on tubes 40 years ago and never looked back.

I also spent considerable time at an audiophile's house (we had a mutual friend.) I listened to a Von Schweikert sub satellite system powered for a while by a Dynaco Stereo 70 knockoff made in China and then by an Italian made "digital" solid state amplifier. The solid state amplifier was clearly more accurate sounding to my ears but the overall sound was still hi fi in a box. But then what do you expect for a mere $1800 for loudspeakers. By today's standards, that's hardly entry level.

I know what people are going to say. You heard a lot of lousy equipment. You should have been listening to brand XXXXX, model YYYYY, then you would have heard something. Mid-fi is the other guy's expensive audio equipment you don't like. That thought struck me when a guy who owned Magneplanar Tympany IV told me my AR9s were mid-fi. Are they? Of course not. Compared to hearing real music, the are all Lo-fi

[Pete B]

- It is clear from my post, but not your quotation of my post, that it was a ubiquitous problem, and not in any way specific to AR.

- Your choice of the term "admitting it" implies that I denied it, or felt some internal resistance about sharing it, and was culpable in it. Since that is obviously not the case, and I brought the whole matter up entirely voluntarily to illustrate a point, I find your terminology strangely accusatory. If I am off base, I apologize. If I am correct, please direct your anxieties elsewhere.

- Hmmm, so you delight in rocking the boat with investigative journalism and challenging theses on many subjects, but you didn't want to even mention your exposure to a practice that was widespread at the time, because of the expected response here? Am I understanding this right?

-k

No, you read into my post incorrectly. Good that you apologized in advance.
I'm not so naive to believe it would be just AR, and I used the terminology
because I never expected to hear it from a past officer of the compnay, that's
all - nothing more. No, I get no thrill at all in rocking the boat, indeed it is easy to
see that my posts are mostly technical. I actually find the pissing contests annoying
and a waste of time. Also, my information related to speaker companies is second
hand, I've certainly seen it first hand in other companies.

[kkantor]

No, you read into my post incorrectly. Good that you apologized in advance.
I'm not so naive to believe it would be just AR, and I used the terminology
because I never expected to hear it from a past officer of the compnay, that's
all - nothing more. No, I get no thrill at all in rocking the boat, indeed it is easy to
see that my posts are mostly technical. I actually find the pissing contests annoying
and a waste of time. Also, my information related to speaker companies is second
hand, I've certainly seen it first hand in other companies.

Thanks for the clarification, and sorry for misconstruing your words.

-k

[kkantor]

None. If I don't like them at least a little in the showroom, things are unlikely to get any better at home.

The last "new" speaker I home trialed was a pair of AR-303's more than 10 years ago. I liked the sound well enough, but for some reason the only ones available were the black laminate model and I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on speakers in fake wood cabinets. I actually toyed momentarily with the idea of buying them anyway, then pulling the drivers and having a cabinet maker peel off the laminate and veneer them. Maybe I should have, but who knew it was going to be the last time I'd hear something I wanted to try at home? I learned much later and too late that there had been a version in real wood. Rosewood. Drat.

Ultimately, our choices in life tend to be severely limited by our preferences.

Wow, I forgot those were even made in black. Must have been a special order for studios, a show or a particular distributor.

Thanks,

-k

[genek]

I know what people are going to say. You heard a lot of lousy equipment. You should have been listening to brand XXXXX, model YYYYY, then you would have heard something. Mid-fi is the other guy's expensive audio equipment you don't like. That thought struck me when a guy who owned Magneplanar Tympany IV told me my AR9s were mid-fi. Are they? Of course not. Compared to hearing real music, the are all Lo-fi

I would guess that my audio standards are considerably lower than yours, as are my expectations. "Hifi" is a relative term for me, because if "hi" means "close enough to fool the listener," I know that's just not going to happen in my living room no matter how much money I put into my sound system. What I'm looking for is sound that enables me to call up memories of the "feel" of live performances from inside my head, without "audio cold showers" that ruin my ability to do that. Chief among these are 1) booming lows, 2) screaming highs, and 3) virtual sound sources that don't stay put if I turn my head or get up from my seat. 1 and 2 are not necessarily fatal flaws, because unlike some audiophiles, I have and use tone controls, but 3 has been the killer. I don't have the kind of hearing that can detect or recognize a "peak" or a "suckout" that goes beyond the standard "+- 3dB" in most FR specs and I didn't pay enough attention to where the musicians originally were to be able to tell that the virtual violinists are 10 ft too far to one side or the other, but I sure as hell can tell when everybody seems to be moving across the room just because I needed a drink refill.

The other requirement I don't see mentioned much is appearance. This may seem terribly non-audiphile, but the damned things have to look good in my living room. For me that means no dayglo colors, no plastic imitation wood or leather sufaces, no LED light shows and no shapes that look like a droid army from Star Wars has invaded my home.

Performance-wise, I would think it shouldn't be that hard to meet my needs, but since my evaluation of any total package is probably two thirds subjective/visceral response, maybe that part is just insurmountable unless somebody starts custom outfitting the darned things like yachts.

[oldguide]

Apologies...

I had been away from this thread for a bit and was astonished to find out where it has gone. kkantor is right. So I will start the apologies with my own. My intent was to call into question the value of the comparison. I believe the questions I raised are still valid. I wish the author had contacted some of the old hands around here who would have been glad to enlighten him about the quirks of ARs and probably supplied the needed speaker. It would not have taken much time or effort.

I have two of the three speakers being tested and frankly they are a different breed of cat that require different care and feeding.

However, my cracks about journalism strayed over the line. Whatever my thoughts about the journalism of Stereophile or the author, they belong on another board or in another place. Let's just say they came from another side of my life that does not belong on this board.

I have been an avid fan of this board because it is a place where we can have discussions and disagreements about speakers and speaker design without getting personal. I am somewhat dismayed about some recent threads--and posters--who have moved away from this.

Curiously, even as Stereophile is running this comparison, I sense a very healthy internal debate going on about mods, upgrades, replacements being spurred by the testing Roy and others are doing with replacements for tweeters and mids. I was going to post something on that, but now is probably not the time for it.

Thanks to Ken for yet again showing us the light.