174 replies to this topic

[genek]

Soundminded observes that, in detail, the parameters must be adjusted for virtually every cut. He's not the first to suggest this.

On the larger scale, however, there's a conspicuously large gap between what are considered rock (L100) vs. classical (AR3a) speakers. Call it west vs. east coast perhaps, but each may be characterized by their respective coloration.

Is it inconceivable that an ideal loudspeaker could play either or both with equal aplomb?

If we assume that the respective colorations are essential to getting the sound "right," then I would say it couldn't happen, at least not without applying EQ. OTOH, rock music played through classic ARs has always sounded just fine to me (if I have visitors with "west coast" preferences, I tell them to just wait until I'm out of the room and then press that button marked "Loudness"), while classical music played through "west coast" speakers usually makes me want to reach for the bass and treble controls (to turn both down). So from my totally subjective POV, the speakers I have do in fact play both "with equal aplomb." Ultimately, it seems to me that "east coast" and "west coast" reflect the subjective preferences of listeners (myself included) rather than any objective requirement of a music genre.

I would be inclined to agree with the "EQ every record" philosophy if objective data about what settings are required for every record came with it. In the absence of this, EQ'ing is still just an exercise in tailoring sound to a listener's subjective view of what sound is "right," and while I might eventually be able to do that for a Rubenstein recording made in a symphony hall I"m familiar with, when it comes to adjusting for Pink Floyd in any venue I'd be utterly lost.

[Carlspeak]

Soundminded observes that, in detail, the parameters must be adjusted for virtually every cut. He's not the first to suggest this.

On the larger scale, however, there's a conspicuously large gap between what are considered rock (L100) vs. classical (AR3a) speakers. Call it west vs. east coast perhaps, but each may be characterized by their respective coloration.

Is it inconceivable that an ideal loudspeaker could play either or both with equal aplomb?

I am still of the opinion that a speaker's coloration is due in some measure to what the drivers are made of - all other things being equal (if that's even possible)

[Zilch]

I am still of the opinion that a speaker's coloration is due in some measure to what the drivers are made of - all other things being equal (if that's even possible)

The are certainly selected for achieving the particular design objective. The question is whether if selected for "neutral," instead, could these multiple purposes be served via other means?

Are studios "tailored" to produce a specific musical genre? Is monitor selection a significant part of that formula, if there is one?

[genek]

I am still of the opinion that a speaker's coloration is due in some measure to what the drivers are made of - all other things being equal (if that's even possible)

Was there any substantial change in what JBL drivers were made of between the 50's and 70's? I heard a lot of classical music played through some tube-powered Hartsfields when I was growing up, and the sound didn't seem terribly 70's "westcoast-y" at all.

[Zilch]

Was there any substantial change in what JBL drivers were made of between the 50's and 70's? I heard a lot of classical music played through some tube-powered Hartsfields when I was growing up, and the sound didn't seem terribly 70's "westcoast-y" at all.

Yes, very much so, although forward mids were always "featured...."

[genek]

Yes, very much so....

Chicken and egg time: did JBL change the drivers because they needed to in order to meet a new sound design goal, or did the sound of JBLs change because they needed to change the drivers for some other reason...?

[Zilch]

Chicken and egg time: did JBL change the drivers because they needed to in order to meet a new sound design goal, or did the sound of JBLs change because they needed to change the drivers for some other reason...?

JBL stepped in it, basically.

They designed a small nearfield monitor to mimic the inaccurate Altec 604, standard studio monitor at the time.

Engineers liked it and took them home, creating a demand for boomy bass.

Consumers liked it for rock, and the rest is history....

[Carlspeak]

The are certainly selected for achieving the particular design objective. The question is whether if selected for "neutral," instead, could these multiple purposes be served via other means?

Are studios "tailored" to produce a specific musical genre? Is monitor selection a significant part of that formula, if there is one?

Okay, let's set aside the measuring equipment and....

..... do a coloration listening test comparing let's say a heavy, felted woofer (ala 3a type) against a modern PP cone type. AR themselves migrated from the former to latter over the course of 10-15 yrs.
Also look at the midrange colorations with a PP cone mid vs say a graphite, wood, titanium, kevlar type cones.

[genek]

JBL stepped in it, basically.

They designed a small nearfield monitor to mimic the inaccurate Altec 604, standard studio monitor at the time.

Engineers liked it and took them home, creating a demand for boomy bass.

Consumers liked it for rock, and the rest is history....

So what year did this happen? I might not want to let JBLs posted for sale go by uninspected if they're earlier than that fateful event...

[Zilch]

So what year did this happen? I might not want to let JBLs posted for sale go by uninspected if they're earlier than that fateful event...

http://www.audioheri...es/jbl/l100.htm

But don't assume that's all that JBL made subsequently, or even contemporaneously; by 1980 they were emphasizing accurate designs, and "west coast" was all but history. Enter David Smith, et al....

[genek]

http://www.audioheri...es/jbl/l100.htm

But don't assume that's all that JBL made subsequently, or even contemporaneously; by 1980 they were emphasizing accurate designs, and "west coast" was all but history. Enter David Smith, et al....

For some reason I've never experienced much enthusiasm for post 70's speakers, and that includes the efforts of the "east coast" makers like AR. I don't know if it's only that I don't like the sound, of if it's a prejudiced continuation of my distaste for the appearance of speakers made without real wood in their cabinets or natural fabrics in their grilles.

[Zilch]

If so, it's not "about the music," then, rather, the meaning.

Pick yer pleasure:

Attached Thumbnails

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[genek]

If so, it's not "about the music," then, rather, the meaning....

It's definitely a holistic sort of experience. I've passed on any number of products with great reviews and even with sound I liked because I thought their appearance was butt-ugly. Like some manufacturers' whole product lines that only come in black.

[Zilch]

Not likely that "looks vintage" is going to make the list of goals for an ideal loudspeaker, but there might certainly be means to disguise it as such.

[Lots of folks brand me "pariah" for doing that, tho.... ]

[genek]

Not likely that "looks vintage" is going to make the list of goals for an ideal loudspeaker, but there might certainly be means to disguise it as such.

If we were running blind testing, we could probably put them all behind a screen or turn out the lights...

[kkantor]

I think it was a clever (grounded in good science) attempt to break the "directional for focus, dispersive for spaciousness" compromise mentioned above. More directional than anything else we've talked about, with stacked arrays in foam lined recesses, yet it put more lateral sound into the room- but only after appropriate time delay.. It should have fooled the ear into thinking you were in a larger room since there would be strong lateral reflections but at a time delay apropriate to a space with wider dimensions.

But I've never heard a pair. Hey Ken, what did they sound like?? Did it work? Did you get focus + spaciousness?

David

Ah, they were terrible.... Somewhere, I have a folder of reviews from the time, but have looked at length and cannot yet find it. (Probably burned it in a fit of guilt and despair.) I do remember being surprised that TAS gave them a long and very positive write up. Meanwhile, here's something that ought to appeal to Z's sensibilities...

http://www.hometoys....php?id=18213964

This (inexpensive) design employs a relatively complicated crossover on the tweeter array for pattern control. It's a bit like the "Bessel Array" that Philips tried, but with the advantage of being able to actively EQ the overall response to allow more degrees of freedom in the passive sections.

-k

[Zilch]

Meanwhile, here's something that ought to appeal to Z's sensibilities....

We'll talk.

I've been intrigued by Keele's CBT, but don't understand it yet.

I THINK this is an implementation steered via passive group delay:

http://www.jblproser.../CBT50LA-WH.pdf

21" x 4" x 6". Outrageous!

Now remembering there was an NHT product with a wide/narrow switch, no?

[I may have something new with defined directivity to show you soon. ]

[speaker dave]

This (inexpensive) design employs a relatively complicated crossover on the tweeter array for pattern control. It's a bit like the "Bessel Array" that Philips tried, but with the advantage of being able to actively EQ the overall response to allow more degrees of freedom in the passive sections.

-k

Ah, line arrays, here is a good general paper on the subject. (Page 7 for Bessel arrays.)

Ken, you don't get off that easy. What did the Magic speakers sound like?

David

Attached Files

•  Line_Arrays.pdf   761.63K   122 downloads

[Carlspeak]

I am still of the opinion that a speaker's coloration is due in some measure to what the drivers are made of - all other things being equal (if that's even possible)

Art Dudley's May Stereophile piece on his re-habbing of an Advent speaker mentions a quote from one of his favorite writers, Herb Reichert:

"Most things really do sound like whatever it is they're made of"

I guess I'm not alone in this opinion.

[speaker dave]

Was there any substantial change in what JBL drivers were made of between the 50's and 70's? I heard a lot of classical music played through some tube-powered Hartsfields when I was growing up, and the sound didn't seem terribly 70's "westcoast-y" at all.

I've never liked the West Coast/East Coast generalizations. It is true that Altec and JBL had a cinema heritage and that steered them into more horn loaded designs. Beyond that all generalizations are pretty loose. What about University and EV? Were they West coast? (New York and Michigan) The big change from the 50's generation of products to the 60's was the realization that achieving flatter response by giving up considerable efficiency was the right way to go. Certainly the AR-1 was the leader here.

I grew up in a house with a JBL D130 woofer in a 10 cubic foot box plus a University horn tweeter on top. Later measurements of the woofer showed a Qt (from memory) of about .25. Lots of magnet and a very light cone meant that that woofer couldn't have bass within 10dB of the midrange level. Maybe in earlier days with amplifiers with a high source impedance it might have worked a little better. In the absence of affordable calibrated measuring systems a lot of early speakers were designed to a simple philosphy of the virtue of large magnets and high efficiency. People thought in ideal driver terms rather than system terms.

With the AR-1 Vilchur piled on the mass until the 2pi response was flat. (This was the essence of his invention, rather than high compliance and letting the cabinet set the resonance. That had been done before.) Woofer and cabinet were designed together to achieve a performance specification.

Beyond the high midband efficiency of earlier products it is hard to generalize what a "West Coast" sound is. In truth most early speakers were bad performers. Their response varied all over the place. East Coast speakers varied as well. An AR3 and a KLH 6 come from pretty different schools of thought.

I think that by the late 70's companies on both coasts were designing to fairly similar philosophies. Everyone had adequate measuring systems and either anechoic chambers or outdoor measuring areas. This greatly reduced the coastal differences.

David