Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Review of AR-303 by Julian Hirsch in June of 1995, He A/Bd the speaker against the AR-3a


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
66 replies to this topic

#61 speaker dave

speaker dave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 465 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:Vintage audio, psychoacoustics, bicycling, shortwave radio, photography, record collecting (mostly classical piano).

Posted 15 June 2010 - 06:39 PM

Dave, the feedback signal hasn't anything to with it bouncing towards the listener at any angle. The reflected signal returns to the woofer and partially nulls the woofer's output. The thing that you hear disappearing when you move to the side and approach the wall is the interaction between the direct signal and the bounce off of the wall that are getting to your ears and cancelling or not cancelling at that point. However, the Allison boundary effect happens everywhere, because it interacts with the woofer and not the listener. The artifact is not listener-position dependent.

In his 1992 interview with David Ranada in The Audio Critic, we have: [Allison] ".... reflections from room surfaces or hard boundaries really do reduce the output of a woofer in the frequency region where those woofers are a quarter-wavelength from the surface.

[Ranada] "This is not merely a listener-position phenomenon, the output of the woofer actually decreases."

[Allison] "Yes, it actually does decrease where one or more room surfaces are a quarter of a wavelength (approximately) from the center of the woofer. The effect is mild where only one boundary is concerned. But when more than one boundary - and in the worst case three boundaries - are equally distant from the woofer, the woofer is effectively operating in a partial vacuum, which reduces its output by 10 dB or more."

[Ranada] "That's because the reflected sound waves alter the emission from the speaker?"

[Allison] "Yes, they are reducing the pressure on the surface of the woofer and reducing the radiation resistance because of that. On the other hand, when the woofer is a very small fraction of a wavelength from one or more boundaries - then the output is actually increased, doubled, quadrupled, or multiplied eightfold, depending upon you have one, two, or three room surfaces."

[Ranada] "So this is the origin of the famed 'Allison dip,' which is a midbass decrease in output."


The Allison boundary effect involves out-of-phase interactions at the woofer and NOT interactions at the listener, and Ranada understands this as one can see by his own responses.

PS: you do not see a cancellation dip with those two woofers on the same baffle that you mention, because they are close enough together for any cancellation artifacts they might generate to be above their operating range. They add together coherently, just as wall-reinforcement does with boundaries that are a very small fraction of a wavelength from the woofer, as Allison noted above. Moving woofers close to boundaries is one solution to the Allison boundary cancellation, provided any potential notches at higher frequencies (due to the close proximity to the boundary) are above the woofer's operating range.

Howard Ferstler


Still not buying it. His math and description in the paper both pertain to the simple sum of the source and its reflection, or virtual source, behind the plane. Nothing includes a woofer model as would be required if the air load on the woofer were causing it to modify its velocity profile. Secondly, none of the 1,2 or 3 boundary cases have the null at .25 wavelength. This is because they are averages of multiple curves that all have their nulls at various frequencies, due to the path difference varying as observed from different angles.

Allison is correct to agree that the emission from the speaker is altered, that is what the power sumation shows. Calling it a decrease in midbass output is equally true. It still doesn't mean that the pressure response being created is independent of angle as you imply when you state that the null is formed "at the speaker". The null remains a function of observation angle and is purely a reflection phenomenon.

Points to ponder: If the Allison dip is quite strong with a woofer in front of a single boundary, when measured straight out from the system, why does it diminish in the power average? (Because it varies strongly with angle.)

Why do ground plane measurements not have aberations related to the distance the woofer is from the ground? (And I have done this in cases where the woofer spacing would have been 1/2 wave apart within the passband. Read Gander on ground plane measurements, no mention of it.)

Why do none of the dips in the power response happen at .25 wavelength off the surface? (.35 for the single boundary case. Even the 3 boundary case is closer to .3 than to .25. Answer: because we are averaging something that varies with angle.)

Where is the woofer modeled in Allisons math? (It is a model of the geometry of two independent sources. The sin Theta term creates the variation with observation angle.)

Why don't side by side sources have a null at a frequency equivalent to a 1/2 wavelength spacing? (because the mechanical impedances, primarily mass, greatly diminish any effect one woofer could have on the other.)

Not quibbling with anything Allison said, just how it is being paraphrased.

David

#62 kkantor

kkantor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 761 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:45 AM

Probably why I've never started a business except for sole proprietor consulting. In the scenario you describe, I think I'd hand over my shares to my employees and just go. Obviously, I was never destined to be a "captain of industry."



I laughed out loud at the "captain of industry" image! Yup, that's us audio guys.

More like the Captain on Gilligan's Island. All the fun is in trying to be rescued...

-k

#63 genek

genek

    Advanced Member

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,578 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Marcos, CA

Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:45 AM

I laughed out loud at the "captain of industry" image! Yup, that's us audio guys.

More like the Captain on Gilligan's Island. All the fun is in trying to be rescued...

I think I always used to identify more with Gilligan, but since taking on the moderator role in these forums, the captain probably is closer...

#64 speaker dave

speaker dave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 465 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:Vintage audio, psychoacoustics, bicycling, shortwave radio, photography, record collecting (mostly classical piano).

Posted 16 June 2010 - 11:27 AM

It really makes no sense for me to repeat what I have said before.

Please, don't let that stop you.

(Roy Allison) I never claimed that the cone velocity was altered significantly. It is altered, but negligibly.


As I had said. It is not about the woofer velocity profile but about the pressure sumation of the source and its reflection.

To sum: the power output of a low-frequency speaker is altered at some frequencies in predictable manner and amount by typical room boundary reflections. Q.E.D.


Yes it is can be modeled simply as a reflection effect, as cone velocity is negligibly altered.

I will say that a formula Roy came up with to calculate the suckout formula does use 0.3 instead of 0.25, simply because the woofer center cannot be a true quarter-wavelength away from the whole boundary surface at the same time.

The 0.3 multiplier is a compromise to get a working frequency. For the front wall, that would be to the cabinet edge and then straight back to that wall, of course. Other walls would probably work with straighter measurements.


Nope, the theoretical 1, 2, and 3 boundary power response curves shown are calculated for an ideal point source case and have nothing to do with cabinet width or energy spilling over the edges, or varying distance to the "whole boundary". The discrepency between the dip frequency and the "expected" .25 wavelength null is inherent in the power averaging of a function that changes with observation angle..

I'm off on vacation but will take some measurements that illustrate my point when I get back.

David

#65 Stormy2021

Stormy2021

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Interests:music, astronomy, sci-fi

Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:46 PM

Uh oh, here comes an audio engineer wannabe. :P :rolleyes:

I admit 1) I haven't read this entire thread and 2) am only an audio amateur and only understand about half of what is being posted here by those on both sides of the argument.

That being said........

Reading the comments about woofer/boundary issues made me think of subwoofers and how they are usually located for best performance. To expand on that: in my experience, the majority of subs sounded best (best = non-boomy quality; and compared to a pair of conventional floorstanders using woofers with a combined radiating area equal to the sub's driver, capable of producing higher levels of bass that also extends much deeper) when located very near a wall, inches in other words, and especially near or in a corner.

Obviously this only works for the really low stuff, because when I've played around with my conventional full range speakers and placed them right up next to the wall but especially in a corner, the level of low bass increased significantly and was more extended (I know the speaker itself remained the same - I just mean the lowest frequencies it did produce were now more obvious), but everything above ended up sounding boomy and just plain ugly.

And there's that series of Boston Acoustics loudspeakers sold in the 80s, the "A" series, that IIRC were designed to be operated with their backs against the rear wall. I think their very broad front baffles helped them to "blend" with the wall...or am I confused? But they and some other brands at the time were the only speakers to use such a design and I've never seen any imitating that design since then, so I guess they didn't perform as well as originally thought?

That's all I wanted to say - thanks for reading! :)

#66 kkantor

kkantor

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 761 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2010 - 03:04 AM

... Soon after they sold to Boston Acoustics. I came in for a second interview and road up the elevator with Andy Kotsatos. "And who are you?" I asked, "We just bought the company." said Andy...


I meant to reply to this sooner, but anyway...

Great vignette! There are all kinds of potential snappy retorts, none of which would have come to mind in the actual situation.

I think I remember that big freight elevator. There was a cabinet floor, a driver/crossover floor, a warehouse/inventory floor, an office floor? Am I even close, or mis-remembering?

-k

#67 Stormy2021

Stormy2021

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Interests:music, astronomy, sci-fi

Posted 19 June 2010 - 11:42 PM

Thanks Howard for your informative post. :thumbsup:




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users